Pglasgow

The only first hand knowledge that I personally have is from my hunting partner who does use PowerBelts and has for years. Several years back he shot a really nice 4x5 at about 25/35 yards. He knew he hit the animal and knowing him and his shooting abilty I was quite confident that he would not have missed. We reconstructed the shooting found the spot that the animal was and located tracks headed off and downhill. It took us several hours to track the animal down, no real blood trail to follow, just a decent running track every so often in the soil. Anyway afew hundred yards down the hill he found the buck piled up in a heap and in hole. The bullet had entered behind the left front shoulder clipped the shoulder blade broke a rib and from there nobody is quite sure. It did not exit and it could not be found, in fact it never made it across the chest cavity, just not really sure what happened to it.

You can say it worked, because he has the rack to prove it, but it certainly was not an efficient killer. By all rights, the shot he made should have been a great shot, it should have destroyed everything in the chest cavity, it should have passed through. it should have caused a massive loss of blood, but it didn't the animal bled out internally.

The following season he took another whitetail and everything worked just fine. Last year he missed a nice spike elk, we hope... it wasa more difficult shot but makeable. We worked several hours trying to find any trace of the animalor any trace that he had been hit - no such luck- nothing. We have both convinced ourselves it was a clean miss.

I donot use PB's and I can not imagine the situation where I might, not with the other options out there. But to those that do including my best friend that is his/their option, I'll still go hunting with him, but everytime he pulls the trigger on his Hawken, I always wonder, can't help it.

The comment about basalt is exactly that a comment... although in my mind it did prove to me what might be a stong projectile and what might not. Sort of the ultimate tortue test and the different results speak for themselves.

I guess I pretty much disagree with this statement... if the scapula is under the skin when it is shot... It might cause some deflection but will not stop penetration of a decent bullet with decent velocity. The only way your theory might work is with a straight on shot along the scapula that would be a grazing shot anyway.

Pretty much disagree with this statement also... here is a small buck taken with what I think isthe shot you are talking about @ 171 yards with a Nosler... nice little entrance hole... 50cent exit hole and not an organ in the chest cavity intact - just jello... he did go about 25 yards in the snow but know trouble tracking if I needed to...

You are the one who made that judgement cascadedad, not me.

If i recall, I got a lecture from Mike for quoting problems members like txhunter58 and Stevebny who had troubles getting satisfaction from T/C. He questioned their motives, but mostly what he complained about was that I was repeating someone else's experience and not that of my own.

I agreed. And posted that I agreed.

Frankly, cascadedad, I don't think sabotloader needs you to act as the playground bully to defend his name by attempting to trash mine. Also, I think if sabotloader were to live to the standards he expects from others, he would tell you so and then state precisely what his huntingexperiences with powerbelts. From his posts, I gather it is little, if any. When he says "I really do not know the reason they break up but they certainly can and have on many occasions.", he merely repeats what others are saying. Personally, I think sabotloader is big enough to admit that he shouldn't be doing that.

Furthermore, I don't comments like the one quoted above helps anyone or contributes anything to responsible use of a muzzleloading projectile while hunting.The evidence is clearly written in the archives of this forum that very few people experience problems with ANY projectile's capability, whether PB or otherwise,to penetrate and kill game when used responsibly.

Mike,

Its obvious to me that the shot entered inside the shoulder in the brisket and didn't go through the shoulder. But if you want to encourage shootinga quartered deer so that the bullet strikes the outside of scapula, then feel free. What I can tell you is this. Its bad shot placement with any projectile or any rifle and should be avoided.

Pglasgow

Totally agree, but I thought that is the shotyou were talking about. This deer was quartering towards me up out if a creek bottom... Gotta tell you though the shot should have enter a little more to the right, but I am sure the wind had something to do with it being left of POA.

As for shooting an animal quartering away or even to you as this shot was... i am still not understanding what you are describing... Quartering shots are quite common and certainly makeable by most and there is not doubt in my mind I can make that shot everyday all day...

OK the deer is quartering to you and shoot the inside (leading edge) of the scapula or even the trailing edge of the scapula. What is the problem with that shot? Remebering you said quartering not walking straight at or away from you... I guess I have enough faith in my shooting that a quartering shot is not a problem. A quartering shot at a sprinting animal with a ML is something I probably would pass on, but with the 270 or the 300 that would not be a problem either... i can not even tell you how many Elk that I have shot that have been quartering...

Flat out are you saying a quartering shot into the scapula area or under it on your side of the body is a bad shot?

I have been shooting large lead conicals for quite a few years. I cast all my own. I have hunted with a 525 grain pure lead 50 caliber bullet in my ML. I have also hunted quite a bit with my 1885 Browning, and 1886 Winchester with 405 grain conicals poured from wheel weights(slightly harder than pure lead). I have had great success on three elk and three or four dozen deer. I have not lost a hit deer yet. But I will admit that I do not take bad shots. All my ammo is loaded between 1200 and 1600fps. I can assure you these loads, and bullets are devastating on game. Broadside shots normally always have an exit if no bone contact. Normally I shoot for the front shoulder, and when you hit the shoulder with a heavy conical you just pick them up. They run no where. I shot all three elk behind the front shoulder. The farthest distance one went was 50 yards. When that big conical hit them, they just went sick. Anyone who has shot alot of game knows what I mean when I say that.

Remember one thing. All the buffalo were killed with heavy conicals, that were hand poured lead conicals that were shot out of a Sharp's rifle with open sights. So spare me the charts and drop calculations. Just get out and shoot your rifle. If you shoot enough, then everything else will take care of itself. Tom.

Disagree Phil, it was and is a good shot into the brisket--the heart and lungs are right there. Where in the manual of hunting (reputable source) does it say that the quarter tobrisket shot is bad, or is that statement of "any projectile or any rifle and should be avoided" just your personal philosophy of shooting, which your giving your experince with?
Chap Gleason

I call anything other than a broadside deer a quarter deer. If the deer's head is closer than his tail, then he is "quartered towards" me, tail closer than the head, "quartered away".

To shot a deer on the outside of his shoulder when quartered towards you is very pathetic irresponsible shot placement. For one thing the angle can allow the bullet to be deflected so that none of the vitals are damaged. Even if the bone is pierced, it is unlikely that both lungs will be damaged. A three legged deer can go a considerable distance with one lung.

Quartered away is certainly more forgiving and I personally like "just enough" quarter away to point directly at the opposite shoulder on path through the bulk of the lungs.

In any case, whether"quartered away" or "quartered towards", high angle ofquartering shot is less forgiving and requires accurate shot placement with the anatomy of the game considered. As far as your buddy, couple the quartering away with a 25 yard shot, (probably charged high and fairly light PB), the outcome was pretty good. But the problem isn't the blanket statement "PB's break up", it definitely more complicated than that, I think you can agree.

Obviously, Mike, you don't have trouble with deer getting away. Best I can tell, your friend who uses Powerbelts isn't having any trouble either, just like the vast majority of folks that use them.

Chap,

If you re-read the posted statement, I think you will change your mind. Sabotloader's shot isn't the shot I said should be avoided, though I would say this. To take the shot Sabotloader took, one needs to have every confidence that the bullet will strike right where it did. A3 inch miss, and the outcome could have been different.

HEAD0001

That is a really nice looking rifle... I am not real good at identifying the older generation of guns, what is it for sure? Is a cartridge gun as I suspect? How about a full pic of the gun...