I just got a Savage 10 ML and am shooting AA 5744. Is the Barnes Origonals the Barnes XPB pistol bullet or the Barnes X bullet in 45/70 (i.e. .458 diameter). Also what sabot do you use? I have some Knight Ultimate Slams 290g made by Barnes and some Barnes 285g PBX.
Thanks Chap

I believe the same thing about the PB, but have no experience with big conicals. Thanks for giving that angle on the discussion. Chap

You said the following:
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Its obvious to me that the shot entered inside the shoulder in the brisket and didn't go through the shoulder. But if you want to encourage shootinga quartered deer so that the bullet strikes the outside of scapula, then feel free. What I can tell you is this. Its bad shot placement with any projectile or any rifle and should be avoided.
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The above statement lead me to believe you were talking about the shot Mike took and you called it bad shot placement for any bullet from any rifle, so I thought we were talking about that shot in subsequent threads, whichI thought you then labeled as pathetic and irresponsible. If that is not the case, whatwere you talking about that waspathetic and irresponsible?

Chap

Cost is the major factor for me. I can buy 10 pounds of powder. My friend works at a tire shop, so my WW is free. I can cast 1000 bullets in five or six very enjoyable hours. I also need 1000 Caps, or 209 primers. This allows me to shoot 1000 shots for about $135. I have no idea what it would cost to shoot the expensive bullets you guys are talking about?

I know one thing for sure. If you put 500 to 1000 rounds through your ML-then you should really know it. All the penetration and bullet weight retention goes out the window when you really know your rifle. This expensive stuff might be OK for guys who shoot five or ten rounds a year. But I would say that these guys who shoot this little are the real problem. Practice with your ML, that is the key(Not how much you spend on your bullets). Tom.

Agree with you Tom on the range time. What caliber is your rifle 45-70? Is it a ML or BP Cartridge rifle? Chap Gleason

The two in the photo are 45-70 cartridge. I can shoot BP in them. I shoot some BP in my Browning, but not in my Sharp's. You can get blowback in the Sharp's. I also shoot BP in my Winchester 1886. Iam looking at a couple different single shots for BP only, but I have not ponied up the bucks yet. I am looking real hard at one of the Gibb's rifles. Tom.

If you think about it, a conical is like shooting shotgun slugs. Not much speed or range but they pack a heavy punch!

Chap,

I don't care to beat a dead horse, but if go to my original post, before sabotloader posted his pics, it will be clear I was talking about impact outside the shoulder on a frontally quartered animal. Yes, sabotloader's was frontally quartered, but his placement was perfect.

Now sabotloader is an excellent marksman. He spends lots of time at the range and can make that shot at 170 yards just like he did. I have no complaints with sabotloader's shot.

That said.A frontally quartered shot like that leaves very little room for error. The farther out that shot is taken, the less desirable it becomes. If he misses by 3 inches left, he lands outside the shoulder possibly deflecting or wounding only one lung. If he misses 3 inches right, he may miss lung altogether or barely wound the right one.

Don't miss read this. He has the skill to do it.

Too often people make bad decisions and when they do,unintended, undesiredoutcomes result. Good people making mistakes. But one can't learn from errors without identifying the problem. IMO, the powerbelt bullets fits a special categoryof "scape goat" and the use of it as a "scapegoat" isgaining popularityin this and other forums.

Even when overpowered, according to numerous posts by reputable users, Powerbelts swiftly kill deer, provided that are expertly placed to pass through both lungs without having to negotiate high quartering angles or bone. This is the bread and butter shot and usually one gets a chance to place double lung if he is patient. Sometimes it won't come and it will boil down to a judgement. "Do I have the skill to place it where it needs to go or will I let it pass?"Even if thedecision is made to take the shot, one generally can not expect to kill the animal as swiftly as getting the perfect broadside shot. An animal with one lung can do some amazingthings even though its dying.

My original reference to shot placement was meant to make sabotloader aware that his information was largely based on accounts where he was not present, often with the animal unrecovered, and no knowledge quartering angle or precise impact. I have hunted now for 30 years. Done alot of hunting during rifle season and I can't tell you how many deer I have recovered for members in the party after they have given up looking for it. Even a high powered rifle with its jacketed bullet can beslow to killwhen placement is less than ideal. Blood doesn't always come out in easily tracked trails, even on pass throughs.

Since I didn't draw buck this past season, I took a friend hunting last year and he shot a nice 5X5 at 80 yards, twice, with a 270 rifle broadside. It got away. Why? Shot placement was less than ideal, there can be no other reason. I wasn't looking through the scope and I don't know the precise impacts because the deer, inspite of our efforts that evening and most of the following day, was not recovered.

This I can tell you. He got lung. The deercoughed up coagulated blood. He got something to do with his leg, shoulder, or something because he was dragging his leg through the sand of a dry creek bed he used as an escape route. We worked very hard to recover him but ultimately lost the trail.

Thepoint here is that any bullet can fail and even while my friend felt sure of his shots, the impactshad to be less than the precise placement needed to do the job swiftly. If he had shot a powerbelt, there would be those who would simply draw the conclusion that it "blew up" or "didn't penetrate".

In the now year and a half I have been a member here, I have yet to see any thread on shot placement,specifically the risks and greater level of skill required,surrounding alternatives to the double lung shot. There have been numerous threads on powerbelts. It would be nice to see a different attitude about unrecovered game, one which recognizes the responsibility lies with the hunter, not his equipment, rather his skill and use of the equipment. That's the kind of help which would result in better, more successful hunters.

Pglasgow

I have a couple of things that i would like to comment on WITHOUT anybody thinking i am contradicting you. These are my comments and my feelings...

I honestly do feel that I do not have to expertly place my shots, now while that sounds terrible, I feel I have a 6" area that I have to hit to get a quick humane kill. With the bullet I am using - I have the confidence it will do it's part if I get in that area.

This is a true statement and I will tell you if your bullet is working for you and if it passes through the chest cavity - it will destroy all the organs inside the cavity, actually turn them to jelly. As an example the deer in the earlier post hit through the brisket and out the right, the bullet may have hit a part of the heart and maybe a part of one lung maybe.... but when i open up the deer there was not any identifiable organs or pieces inside the cavity - everything was dark red jello. The Nosler did it's job all I have to do is get it inside the cavity with enoughvelocity to cause expansion and Hydrostatic shock....In most animals i harvest with this particular bullet that is exactly what happens, whether i shoot it in the brisket, behind the shoulder, or through the shoulder.

Phil, you are correct, my limited experiance with the projectile had me distrusting it, from the beginning, coupled with the experiance my partner had and then from the reading I have done by a lot ofpeople that I truly trust and with a lot of experiance. My mind is made up and solid...

Well, I guess I really do not think that ANY bullet can fail, certainly some can if the wrong bullet is chosen to do a job it can not do. But i believe the shooter fails far more than the bullet. I know you get tired of hearing this, but I have yet to have a Nosler fail me provided i did my part with the correct bullet.

Last year on day #1 of the hunt i spotted a nice buck, and he spotted me. I had my flintlock with me and ranged him at 100 yards. He was face me and i could only see his head,neck and chest. He was well within range but even with my inline i still would not have pulled the trigger. That was way to hard of a shot.
Im not really following this thread much but ive caught some bits here and there. I think whats most important is that the hunter knows he can make the shot if he feels comfortable with it. I held off on a 160 yard shot because i didnt feel comfortable and didnt want to chance it. Gotta have patience to shoot a muzzy. I still wont shoot a deer if hes facing me dead on. Now if it were a 50 to 75 yard shot, that i would feel very comfortable with.