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Ethics question

Old 12-07-2009, 04:07 PM
  #21  
Spike
 
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Here where I am in illinois we always try to recover a wounded deer.All it takes is a phone call or visit to anyone of the neighbors.And alot of times they will help you look for the deer.I can not even imagine not trying to recover a wounded animal.

Mike
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Old 12-07-2009, 08:48 PM
  #22  
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I'm not sure i don't agree with the premise of hunting so close to the property line of a known neighbour who would refuse access in the event of a wounded animal??? I'm not saying I agree with what he said or how he said it but the underlying thought isn't that crazy. I have had the exact same situation where the neighbours made no bones if I stepped on his property they'd have me charged. In all cases I have chose other locations that wouldn't put me into such a situation. Why play with fire?? Here the letter of the law is if you can prove the animal was hit prior to crossing the property line you can retrieve it with a CO/DNR ******. No permission or CO ****** is trespassing, even if you can show it was taken legally (the landowner has the power to say charge or no charge!).

You did the right thing you asked permission to follow up on a wounded deer. Prior transgressions don't give you the right to even the score. You also did right by not just going anyway. The situation itself sucks and feel bad for you, your son and the lost deer. Hopefully you can come to some sort of agreement or understanding for the future.

Best of Luck
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Old 12-07-2009, 10:43 PM
  #23  
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You did the right thing but I would pass copies of the tape to the father of the two trespassing sons and then try once again for permission to recover a killed animal on his land. If says no them inform him you are taking the tapes to the local authorities with the entire story. I know that they will be very supportive of you since you took the high road and I'm sure that they would take a trip to your neighbour's property to warn them of future trespassing charges. It is at all time better to be the better human being and not the lesser as well as it will provide an excellent example for your son.
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Old 12-08-2009, 05:46 AM
  #24  
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You did it the right way. The law is involved here and the man, however unsavory and hypocritical, has a right to keep individuals off his property.

What you're really talking about here is whether or not you should practice civil disobedience. In the situation you've described, the answer is No. Since this is not a case of an unjust law, we have to obey it. (This is not to say the law could not be improved).

The other factor to consider is that trespassing causes damage to property rights, weakens security, and creates disorder in society. It's good to recover a deer, but the benefits don't outweigh these negatives.

Someone here suggested that this is like Jesus setting aside the Old Testament law, so it would be ok to do it here. As a pastor, I'd say that is a misunderstanding what Jesus was doing. First, as Son of God, he had the authority to do so. A hunter standing at a fenceline looking at another man's property does not.

Secondly, Jesus was dealing legal precepts intended by God to be temporary and no longer needed. He was also disposing of various interpretations of the law that were being given undue weight by the religious leaders.
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Old 12-08-2009, 06:17 AM
  #25  
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In the part of Illinois where I own land and hunt, I know of only one person, out of dozens of landowners, who will not let people on his land to recover a deer, and he is widely considered to be a jerk. But it is not illegal to be a jerk.

As for hunting near property lines, I've yet to meet a deer hunter who goes out of their way to place their stand at the point furtherest from other neighboring properties, especially if there are better spots near a property line. Even if they did, a deer hit pretty hard still run several hundred yards in some instances which will easily take them off a 100+ acre tract of land. However, as Skeeter says, you are sort of asking for trouble if you are hunting close to a property line where you know for a fact that they are A-holes who are not gonna let you on their land.

Where I grew up, people tend to obey the law. However, when you have someone who is clearly being a hypocrite, then most aren't going to bother asking permission, they are just gonna go get their deer. Not apologizing for it, that's just the way it is.
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Old 12-08-2009, 06:20 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by Father Forkhorn View Post
You did it the right way. The law is involved here and the man, however unsavory and hypocritical, has a right to keep individuals off his property.

What you're really talking about here is whether or not you should practice civil disobedience. In the situation you've described, the answer is No. Since this is not a case of an unjust law, we have to obey it. (This is not to say the law could not be improved).

The other factor to consider is that trespassing causes damage to property rights, weakens security, and creates disorder in society. It's good to recover a deer, but the benefits don't outweigh these negatives.

Someone here suggested that this is like Jesus setting aside the Old Testament law, so it would be ok to do it here. As a pastor, I'd say that is a misunderstanding what Jesus was doing. First, as Son of God, he had the authority to do so. A hunter standing at a fenceline looking at another man's property does not.

Secondly, Jesus was dealing legal precepts intended by God to be temporary and no longer needed. He was also disposing of various interpretations of the law that were being given undue weight by the religious leaders.
As usual fork, as most "religious leaders" I notice they go to legalism. Most leaders just can't get away from the law. Christ warned us, Paul warns us, John warns us. I have seen it so many times with "leaders". I don't think it starts that way, but for most it ends that way.

But as Jesus Christ clearly pointed out with the example of David eating the bread in the temple, its about what is in your heart. And he is the ultimate leader. And everything he said is right and just. But as you and I are human, everything we say is not so. You could be in error here. And I believe with these examples Jesus Christ gave us. I think you are. I would never say "I know" as you have showed in your post. Because we are human, and not perfect.

If I sit on a property line, and I decide to persue a deer, with the thought in my head that I wish no ill will towards the property owner. Nor destruction of his property. Then I believe in my heart I am being a good steward of the animals God has given us all to eat. Now, in my heart, if I have evil thoughts and desires like I do care if the land owner is upset. Or I do not care about his rights, I just want my deer.

There obviously is more going on here in this post than just retriveing the deer. If the orig poster felt the need to send a certified letter, then that opens the door for problems. Not a smart move. I have a neighbor who is like this. They have an ongoing feud with the adjacent neighbors. Certified letters going back and forth. All over a right of way and trespassing. So I just purchased a chunk of heaven behind them. The first neighbor comes to me and explains no way i will get neighbor two to sign a contract giving me legal right of way because of his issues with him. Tells me he's a bad guy.

I figured respect goes a long way. I give them both respect. So I go to neighbor 2 and instantly he signs my contract, for free. Said he was glad to help and considers me a friend. Neighbor 1 was furious. And what boggles me is how he cannot figure why neighbor 2 wouldn't do the same for him. Even though he is the one who started with certified letters.
 
Old 12-08-2009, 06:40 AM
  #27  
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ill-cornbred...are you serious? Don't be hunting so close to someone elses property, as to prevent the deer from going onto neighboring land? Wow.
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Old 12-08-2009, 07:30 AM
  #28  
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it looks to be 50/50 as far as responses goes...if your ethics wont allow you to recover the deer, then dont...if your ethics do...then do!! that simple...everyone's ethics are different
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Old 12-08-2009, 07:56 AM
  #29  
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Ya can't do it. You have no permission to gain access to their property, no matter if they have trespassed on your property or not. IMHO, they are unrelated.
I agree. They are unrelated. And there is no way in heck I'm NOT going after that deer. I'll pay the consequences, but I'm not letting a deer that I decided to end it's life rot in the woods someplace because I can't walk what is probably 100 yards or less on their land. I'd extend the same courtesy to anyone else no matter how much I may or may not like them.

Actually, interesting situation last season. We've had several run ins with one of our neighboring properties. There is a little bad blood between us from past experiences. To make a long story short here's what happened.

I was sitting in my stand fairly close to bordering property. I hear a shot from the neighboring land and about a minute later see the deer that was hit cross onto my land and bed down about 150-200 yards in front of me still alive but hurting unit (gut shot). About 10 minutes later I see orange behind me following a blood trail (the neighbors). I get up and wave my orange to catch their attention and wave and signal to them to wait and point to let them know i see THEIR deer. The one guy is only 50 yards from me so I motion for him to quietly walk towards my stand. I let him know whats up and tell him to hang tight and don't move.

I decided that we should sneak out of there and backtrack through their land to not push the deer and come back for it later. We met at our lodge later and I drove to our land and walked to where the deer bedded down (shorter walk than through his land). The deer was laying dead where I last saw it and recovered.

If I wanted to be an a-hole i would have watched them keep going after it and push it to never find it again. Or I could have denied them to come on my land and take the deer myself. Neither of which I had any intentions of doing and both would have been ridiculous.

Now we have a mutual friendship and understanding about recovering deer on eachothers lands.
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Old 12-08-2009, 08:00 AM
  #30  
Spike
 
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Sounds like a good "Old fashion ****'n contest" I am not sure what I would have done but I probly would have left my firearm behind and recovered the animal, even if prosecuted, first time would most likely be a stern warning,.

I don't know if you have tried this or not but why not invite the guy over for a beer and try and get a working relationship worked out, who knows he might be a nice guy, who know you might become "Buddies" (although I dought it) but it doesn't hurt to try. Good Luck Den
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