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Manchurian Pheasants

Old 09-01-2020, 03:25 PM
  #11  
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You might want to consider that most of the land owned by the PGC is mountain land and pheasants do not do well in mountain land. They do own some land in farm areas but not much and certainly not enough to have any kind of wild peasant program. The failure of the wild pheasant introduction program has shown wild pheasants for the most part are done in PA. The change in farming practices couples with wholesale development of farm land has sounded the death knell for wild pheasants in PA.
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Old 09-01-2020, 04:00 PM
  #12  
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Originally Posted by Oldtimr View Post
You might want to consider that most of the land owned by the PGC is mountain land and pheasants do not do well in mountain land. They do own some land in farm areas but not much and certainly not enough to have any kind of wild peasant program. The failure of the wild pheasant introduction program has shown wild pheasants for the most part are done in PA. The change in farming practices couples with wholesale development of farm land has sounded the death knell for wild pheasants in PA.
yes but the point I was making was this
first off, the JOB of the PA game commission was to protect and see wildlife in the state strives, which they FAILED AT< when we lost the major percentage of pheasants, like it or not, that was a failure on the game CO part! 100%
like it or not, when your job is to protect something and they perish, the ball was dropped!
passing the buck blaming farmers, farming practices , chemicals and ALL that other crap! t! dioesn;t change the FACT the JOB to protect GAME was NOT done, the farmers out west used same said chemicals and practices , yet didn;t loose pheasants, and the BS about they had more habit is just that BS!
same as blaming hawks and predators!
out wets has slot of predators too! I
I spent a a LOT of time out west hunting things and in just being out there all times of the yrs for decades!

PA had a TON of farms in its prime!
yes we lost a LOT of them, but again had money been spent on buying habitat rather than wasting in on proven NON to LOW survival rates of pen raised birds??
maybe things could have been saved or returned or BETTER!


and , ALL that wasted MONEY spent on pen raised pheasants could have been USED to BUY land with habit or MADE habitat that pheasants could have strive'd again on!
a few million dollars buts a BUNCH of land, add that for decades of costs in pen raised pheasants, and well the PA game commission could have bought a LOT of farm land that NOW is housing developments, doing several things positive, in helping SAVE pheasants and protecting more land in the state from development and for WILDLIFE!
,
and before the answer comes back that what we know now as to back then, BS<
its already been stated MANY folks in the game commission already KNEW pen raised pheasant was NOT working would never work and was basically a waste of money in trying o get pheasants BACK in PA!
which again should have sent BIG red flags up about wasted spending, and then funds should have been spent in a different direction to TRY and solve the problem, and NOT just wasting money doing the same thing that wasn't EVER going to work !
OT I know you were a game warden and you stand behind your agency,and I mean NO disrespect to you!

but at some point in time, like it or not, , feelings and loyalty cannot defend what happened!
and teh FACT the game commission has been VERY slow to react to things , its a tract record, look at pheasants, look at what the deer out of control did to forest in PA, , now finally admitting a issue with grouse,and IMO< soon to screw up the bear population with all the extended seasons, which to me are just a way to MAKE INCOME, due to loss of hunters in the sate(numbers are a fraction of what they used to be
so there trying to make income back they lost, and at what cost
I'm all for EXTRA days for bears, bear numbers are high,. but to jump to such a HUGE amount added is asking for issue's
add in the number of fem,ales killed now that are carrying next yrs cubs already , the damage I fear will be TOO late again, before the GC reacts!
I'm fairly sure you will dis agree with me, but I been about a Long time, have countless friends that work for the GC as well, and know a lot more than the average hunter!

so don;'t think I say this stuff lightly or with just reasons!

to go from pretty much a top 5 pheasant state to pretty much ZERO
and a GAME dept with a responsibility to PROTECT GAME
who is to blame?? farmers, ??
NO< the agency that was designed to protect game , that's how it works in the real world

any agency that fails at there task, should be responsible and admit it! and take steps to FIX IT<M and if one step fails, try again till it gets fixed, NOT keep doing the same thing that even THEY know won;'t work!
that's wasted spending and well, not protecting that game species at all!
that's 100% failure at its highest point! in many ways!

Last edited by mrbb; 09-01-2020 at 04:06 PM.
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Old 09-01-2020, 04:11 PM
  #13  
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OH and I'll add this, as of now, the GC has about 1.5 million acres under its control, so lets say JUST 30% of that could have MADE good pheasant habitat,
that's almost a 1/2 a million acres
and then lest add in, this, what about FEDERAL lands in PA< , you telling me, the GAME Communion couldn;t have worked with the fed'S to help save AND MAKE some of THERE lands into better habitat for pheasants

OR , how about all the CO op farms and land owners that worked WITH the GC back then!

so that excuse about land being a lot of forested land and POOR habitat , excuse is JUST that an excuse and NOT a reality!
like I said, this is a topic that is a sore spot to me, so, I take it a little harsher maybe than most! but I have done MY homework on things and know all the BS pass the buck that happened and STILL is about on the side of the GC on pheasants!
and again MORE land of better habitat could have been BOUGHT with funds wasted on pen birds!
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Old 09-02-2020, 01:49 AM
  #14  
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Lets not say 30% of the game lands are farm land, they are not. So far as failing to protect the pheasants, just how to you think they could have done that when the best pheasant habitat was on private property that the PGC has no control over. When farming changed the PGC had no ability to stop it, nor should they have had any.
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Old 09-02-2020, 05:04 AM
  #15  
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In Germany, they set aside some farmland for hedgerows and fallow weed plots. It is often a win win for farmers. The farmers sell hunting lease rights and the better the wildlife the higher the price. The government subsidizes habitat areas. And the farmers usually set aside the poorest sections of the area like steep slopes etc.
Habitat isn't the real issue here, predators are. Especially recently when hunting seasons are set by the uninformed politicians. We call it feel good management, most of the off-seasons are during brood months. But the catch is they protect invasive and overpopulated predators at the same time. Side note, the predators have litters at the same time as game animals, birds, Hare, and Rabbits are trying to reproduce and the predators are pretty much hunting 24/7 trying to feed everybody. In effect, the seasons aren't set for population control but to protect predator rearing months. In effect baby, Racoons and Fox are more important than small game animals. Poor management practices. Doubly poor management, it used to be 15% of farmland was mandated (and subsidized) to be set aside for wildlife, that mandate has steadily shrunk over the years. A double whammy less habitat more predators.

The beginning of the thread was about Pheasant habitat. Basically they need windbreaks in the winter, hedgerows or thickets, overhead cover in the brood and rearing months, seed, and insects. Rape makes good habitat, both cover, food, and renewable. Corn left to ripen on the stock. Sunflower plots and grass/grain feed plots, wild weed plots next too or near a hedgerow or thicket. Blackberry thickets also work well, the thorns inhibit most predators and Pheasant seem to be able to move through them well enough. I (and the Pheasant) favor Blackberry thickets, wild weed, and Rape next to a hedgerow, there are most always Pheasant there. Wild weed plots are really popular in the spring and summer, Pheasants favor brooding there.
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Old 09-02-2020, 06:25 AM
  #16  
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Originally Posted by Oldtimr View Post
Lets not say 30% of the game lands are farm land, they are not. So far as failing to protect the pheasants, just how to you think they could have done that when the best pheasant habitat was on private property that the PGC has no control over. When farming changed the PGC had no ability to stop it, nor should they have had any.
well that again to me is an excuse and was NOT an attempt at any solution
and NEXT, I NEVER said that 30% of land was FARM LAND
I SAID< 30% of game lands could have been made INTO< pheasant habitat
even most MOUNTAINOUS lands today have food plots that were MADE , proving that the land space can be altered and been MADE into better habitat that could have supported, SOME pheasants, and lower lands and farm lands BOUGHT could have supported a LOT more!
and lets NOT forget the FACT that a TON of the farm land in PA< was ALL forested land, so its again proven, habitat can be made to support pheasants!

NEXT<> you say again the best land was private
WELL, again, WHY didn't the GC BUY some rather than wasting money on raising pheasants that only died> wasted funding, rather than investing in the future of the state

NEXT, you THINK< that the GC has NO power to fight anything that was wiping out a long time existing species in the state, ?? that is 100% BS< that IS there job to protect wild life in PA!
its the very basic of what the agency is about!
so failure to have saved the pheasants here is was something the GC failed at 100%
blame farming, farmers/farm practices and everything else but they NEVER say it was THERE FAULT AT ALL!
this is BS!

PA lost over 50 % of its farm land in the 90's, 50% of the farm lands, went UP FOR SALE
not to mention how m,any farms sold at CHEAPER prices in the 70's and 80's!

proving that LAND could have been BOUGHT rather than wasting funds on raising birds that did NOTHING to TRY to return the state to having wild pheasants again!
it was a total failure on the GC part, In a piss poor attempt to make money from lic sales and NOT offend hunters over SAVING the pheasants!
just like they let the deer rover browse the states entire forest and woodlands
TILL they were FORCED more or less to ACT, which only offend tons of hunters that cried about deer numbers
but the point was, IT HAD TO BE DONE , it was done for the good of the species and habitat!
happened IMO and many others WAY too late, which again to me is a example of the GC again failing to act before excessive damages have been done, as its a LONG time since the deer reduction numbers took place and MANY forests are still NOT returning to any GOOD habitat due to how far gone they were over browsed!

liek I said, some times the RIGHT thing to do, won't make hunters happy, but a DEPT that's JOB is to protect the wildlife and the habit it lives in, making friends and being popular and selling LIC, shouldn;t be the reason they let things happen

the PA< GC has some extremely powerful means at there disposal to stop and oppose about ANYTHING they wish to to do so!, there basically the HIGHEST law enforcement agency in PA< by the way they wrote things up from the get go!
SO I DON"T by any excuses you have stated or the GC either,
again I know you were a Game warden and I KNOW you will always defend the GC,
burt again, that doesn't mean it was RIGHT!
a hunting species in PAM< basically when extinct! and we the people of PA got excuses NOT any viable solutions!
them same farming practices happened in MANY other states that STILL have pheasants! this is a FACT!
and the MILLIONS PA GC spent again on raising non survivable pheasant could have BOUGHT land that could have supported a HEALTHY population of WILD pheasants in PA!
NO IF AND"S OR BUTT"S
money can do a LOT of things, , wasting it as the PA GC did, solved NOTHING!
there was ZERO LONG term planning with what they did and how they used ALL that money period!

Last edited by mrbb; 09-02-2020 at 06:34 AM.
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Old 09-02-2020, 06:32 AM
  #17  
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and to be clear I am NOT anti PGC at all, I think they were one of the best things PA ever did way back when they started and bought up as much land as they did, its what Makes , PA. , PA?,residents of PA< are blessed due to what the PGC did way back when !

BUT where my issue lies is with the pheasants , a HUGE failure on there part! and the damages the deer herd did to the state and the PGC was WAY too slow to act and well, and the LACK of the PGC ever admitting they were at fault for NOT seeing things handled correctly !
just admit the misstates and stop blaming everyone else and everything else for NOT having done the job they had to do!
protect the land and wildlife in the State!

and I;'m glad the state still have them too by the way,!!
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Old 09-02-2020, 12:02 PM
  #18  
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Originally Posted by mrbb View Post
well that again to me is an excuse and was NOT an attempt at any solution
and NEXT, I NEVER said that 30% of land was FARM LAND
I SAID< 30% of game lands could have been made INTO< pheasant habitat
even most MOUNTAINOUS lands today have food plots that were MADE , proving that the land space can be altered and been MADE into better habitat that could have supported, SOME pheasants, and lower lands and farm lands BOUGHT could have supported a LOT more!
and lets NOT forget the FACT that a TON of the farm land in PA< was ALL forested land, so its again proven, habitat can be made to support pheasants!

NEXT<> you say again the best land was private
WELL, again, WHY didn't the GC BUY some rather than wasting money on raising pheasants that only died> wasted funding, rather than investing in the future of the state

NEXT, you THINK< that the GC has NO power to fight anything that was wiping out a long time existing species in the state, ?? that is 100% BS< that IS there job to protect wild life in PA!
its the very basic of what the agency is about!
so failure to have saved the pheasants here is was something the GC failed at 100%
blame farming, farmers/farm practices and everything else but they NEVER say it was THERE FAULT AT ALL!
this is BS!

PA lost over 50 % of its farm land in the 90's, 50% of the farm lands, went UP FOR SALE
not to mention how m,any farms sold at CHEAPER prices in the 70's and 80's!

proving that LAND could have been BOUGHT rather than wasting funds on raising birds that did NOTHING to TRY to return the state to having wild pheasants again!
it was a total failure on the GC part, In a piss poor attempt to make money from lic sales and NOT offend hunters over SAVING the pheasants!
just like they let the deer rover browse the states entire forest and woodlands
TILL they were FORCED more or less to ACT, which only offend tons of hunters that cried about deer numbers
but the point was, IT HAD TO BE DONE , it was done for the good of the species and habitat!
happened IMO and many others WAY too late, which again to me is a example of the GC again failing to act before excessive damages have been done, as its a LONG time since the deer reduction numbers took place and MANY forests are still NOT returning to any GOOD habitat due to how far gone they were over browsed!

liek I said, some times the RIGHT thing to do, won't make hunters happy, but a DEPT that's JOB is to protect the wildlife and the habit it lives in, making friends and being popular and selling LIC, shouldn;t be the reason they let things happen

the PA< GC has some extremely powerful means at there disposal to stop and oppose about ANYTHING they wish to to do so!, there basically the HIGHEST law enforcement agency in PA< by the way they wrote things up from the get go!
SO I DON"T by any excuses you have stated or the GC either,
again I know you were a Game warden and I KNOW you will always defend the GC,
burt again, that doesn't mean it was RIGHT!
a hunting species in PAM< basically when extinct! and we the people of PA got excuses NOT any viable solutions!
them same farming practices happened in MANY other states that STILL have pheasants! this is a FACT!
and the MILLIONS PA GC spent again on raising non survivable pheasant could have BOUGHT land that could have supported a HEALTHY population of WILD pheasants in PA!
NO IF AND"S OR BUTT"S
money can do a LOT of things, , wasting it as the PA GC did, solved NOTHING!
there was ZERO LONG term planning with what they did and how they used ALL that money period!

You have no idea what you are talking about period. Anyone who thinks and or believes the PGC has the authority to tell farmers how they must plant their fields is ill informed. So far as buying land, there is no way the PGC could afford to buy enough land to bring the pheasants back or prevent them from going away, to say so shows you haven a clue about what farm land sells for and by the way, the PGC is limited as to how much they are allowed to spend per acre for land, $400.00 an acre, at one time not too long ago it was $200.00 per acre.. Even with matching federal funds kicking it up to $800.00 an acre you will not buy enough farm land to even begin to create large blocks of pheasant habitat. Your allegations are totally ridiculous. Almost all Game lands are big woods and much of it was timbered out or mined which is why the PGC could afford to purchase it. You should really quit while you are behind on this because it is making you look silly. You can continue to say the same things over and over in different ways but in the end you will continue to be wrong.

Last edited by Oldtimr; 09-02-2020 at 12:05 PM.
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Old 09-02-2020, 12:55 PM
  #19  
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Originally Posted by Oldtimr View Post
You have no idea what you are talking about period. Anyone who thinks and or believes the PGC has the authority to tell farmers how they must plant their fields is ill informed. So far as buying land, there is no way the PGC could afford to buy enough land to bring the pheasants back or prevent them from going away, to say so shows you haven a clue about what farm land sells for and by the way, the PGC is limited as to how much they are allowed to spend per acre for land, $400.00 an acre, at one time not too long ago it was $200.00 per acre.. Even with matching federal funds kicking it up to $800.00 an acre you will not buy enough farm land to even begin to create large blocks of pheasant habitat. Your allegations are totally ridiculous. Almost all Game lands are big woods and much of it was timbered out or mined which is why the PGC could afford to purchase it. You should really quit while you are behind on this because it is making you look silly. You can continue to say the same things over and over in different ways but in the end you will continue to be wrong.
again OT you show your true colors by trying KNOW what I know more than I do!
I know all about the price the GC can pay for land, and have for decades!
the FACT that farm land sold a LOT cheaper back in the 70's 80;'s and even early 90's (my hunting club in Northern PA< bought a mix of farm land and wooded land for under 300 an acre back in the early 90's as a FACT, and I know of many other land buys for like prices in PA and even less per acre in the 70's and 80's), so???)
and the FACT the PGC spendt tens many MILLIONS on raising pheasants!
if your saying a that much MONEY couldn;t have BOUGHT and Made PHEASANT HABIT YOUR nuts!
I also know exactly what FARM land sells for both in the past and present and has over the yrs in between
I have farmed , BOUGHT farm land, managed farms, are friends with countless frames all across the USA
your ignorance about what I know is amazing, yet you believe the crap you say about what I know or don't, ' with NO proof of anything to back up Anything you say about ME!
that makes YOU a FOOL!
your an EX warden that stands up for your GC without ever considering anything but what YOUR GC does and always assume its RIGHT!

if you think the PGC has NO authority it TRY and change anything being done today your also NUTS
as a FACT when game animal numbers are LOW< they have the authority to control limits or even STOP seasons!
rather than to deplete an animal from its existence in this state!

the PA GC dropped the ball on pheasants plain and simple, get off your HIGH horse and just ,admit t!
they offer ZERO real plan on how to make things work to restore SOME of the habitat that would have saved them!
and your 100% full if BS< if you think wooded land cannot be converted into FARM land, its been done all over the USA
its where MANY of ALL the farm in the northern part of PA came from, cleared forest MADE into farm land

and the PROOF is again on many of the northern game lands that the GC HAS made into Larger food plots and even have AG lands that support crops on them!*( I personally helped turn a 40 acres field on a farm in central PA< into a 70 field that has a VERY high above average yields ever since made, took HARD WORK to do so, but it happened and does all over the USA)
that they work with near by farmers to pl;ant and even allow harvest of them! (I know farmers personally that DO this with the PA GC)
you just don't like being wrong and cannot admit it

just like the rest of the GC that won't admit they screwed up pheasants and forest in PA due to over browsing let go for TOO long before noticing and doing something!

as if you THINK all the BRAINS and biologist and habitat developers and conservation depts, COULDN'T have come up with a better idea that PEN raised birds, you must me lacking some basic common sense!
that plan by the GC own admittance would EVER work, even YOU SAID SO!
All that pen raising pheasant program did was WASTE funds, something PAGC loves to complain about NOT having funds!
raising pheasants that wouldn't survive was a pointless game and in NO WAY Shape or form, A SOLUTION to the real PROBLEM!
and your saying the PAGC couldn;t have come up with a better SOLUTION in ALL the yrs they wasted on raising pheasant! or hire someone that could have!
or was it they didn;t care to try anything else??
again , plain and simple
they dropped the ball, and have nothing but BS for excuses!

Last edited by mrbb; 09-02-2020 at 01:00 PM.
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Old 09-02-2020, 01:04 PM
  #20  
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Originally Posted by mrbb View Post
again OT you show your true colors by trying KNOW what I know more than I do!
I know all about the price the GC can pay for land, and have for decades!
the FACT that farm land sold a LOT cheaper back in the 70's 80;'s and even early 90's (my hunting club in Northern PA< bought a mix of farm land and wooded land for under 300 an acre back in the early 90's as a FACT, and I know of many other land buys for like prices in PA and even less per acre in the 70's and 80's), so???)
and the FACT the PGC spendt tens many MILLIONS on raising pheasants!
if your saying a that much MONEY couldn;t have BOUGHT and Made PHEASANT HABIT YOUR nuts!
I also know exactly what FARM land sells for both in the past and present and has over the yrs in between
I have farmed , BOUGHT farm land, managed farms, are friends with countless frames all across the USA
your ignorance about what I know is amazing, yet you believe the crap you say about what I know or don't, ' with NO proof of anything to back up Anything you say about ME!
that makes YOU a FOOL!
your an EX warden that stands up for your GC without ever considering anything but what YOUR GC does and always assume its RIGHT!

if you think the PGC has NO authority it TRY and change anything being done today your also NUTS
as a FACT when game animal numbers are LOW< they have the authority to control limits or even STOP seasons!
rather than to deplete an animal from its existence in this state!

the PA GC dropped the ball on pheasants plain and simple, get off your HIGH horse and just ,admit t!
they offer ZERO real plan on how to make things work to restore SOME of the habitat that would have saved them!
and your 100% full if BS< if you think wooded land cannot be converted into FARM land, its been done all over the USA
its where MANY of ALL the farm in the northern part of PA came from, cleared forest MADE into farm land

and the ROOF is again on many of the northern game lands that the GC HAS made into Larger food plots and even have AG lands that support crops on them!
that they work with near by farmers to pl;ant and even allow harvest of them! (I know farmers personally that DO this with the PA GC)
you just don't like being wrong and cannot admit it

just like the rest of the GC that won't admit they screwed up pheasants and forest in PA due to over browsing let go for TOO long before noticing and doing something!

as if you THINK all the BRAINS and biologist and habitat developers and conservation depts, COULDN'T have come up with a better idea that PEN raised birds, you must me lacking some basic common sense!
that plan by the GC own admittance would EVER work, even YOU SAID SO!
All that pen raising pheasant program did was WASTE funds, something PAGC loves to complain about NOT having funds!
raising pheasants that wouldn't survive was a pointless game and in NO WAY Shape or form, A SOLUTION to the real PROBLEM!
and your saying the PAGC couldn;t have come up with a better SOLUTION in ALL the yrs they wasted on raising pheasant! or hire someone that could have!
or was it they didn;t care to try anything else??
again , plain and simple
they dropped the ball, and have nothing but BS for excuses!
Only one fool in this conversation and it is not me. Yes, I have know doubt that I know more than you do on the subject. 34 years working for the PGC is more Bona Fides than your thinking you know more than I do. Just keep deluding yourself . Now you bring deer into the picture, the subject is pheasants. Just shows how desperate you are to try to make your blathering right. It is not, it never will be. You may want to consider it was the know it all hunters who were responsible for lobbying the general assembly to prevent the PGC from cutting back the deer herd decades before a BOC had the guts to tell the General assembly where to go. No sense continuing this conversation and probably any conversation with you. You are hopeless. Feel free to have the last word, I know you will, but it will not make you correct in your assertions.

Last edited by Oldtimr; 09-02-2020 at 01:08 PM.
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