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RE: Elitist attitude
No, I wouldn't. However, my opinion wasn't the point in question. As it stands, in most states, a crossbow is not archery equipment. That was the perspective I spoke from. It's a "primitive" weapon, or at least has primitive roots--no more, no less. What "makes" a weapon archery is how your state defines it. Compounds are "archery" right ? Yet at one time, they were not because the rules didn't say they were. Crossbows are legal archery in my state of Arkansas - the rules say they are. I know what you were saying, that the states don't allow them, but where they ARE allowed, they ARE archery, and IF they become legal in MS they will be archery there too. And here is where I tie all that in - they ARE considered legal in MS, aren't they ? Handicap people can use them, they ARE considered legal in general archery season for some people. |
RE: Elitist attitude
What makes it LEGAL to use during archery season depends on the state's definition--that doesn't make it a different weapon.
For instance, in MS it's legal to use several different centerfire rifle cartridges during primitive weapons/muzzleloader season. Is a centerfire rifle primitive? Is it a muzzleloader because it's legal in that season? Regardless though, most states do not recognize a crossbow as standard archery equipment. As I keep saying--if it were, then no special permit would be required. Tell me what I'm talking about here. A weapon with a stock and trigger that fires a projectile using energy stored by the person cocking the weapon............................................ ................................ .................................................. ..................................... .................................................. ...................................... .................................................. ....................................... .................................................. ....................................... .................................................. ..................................... .................................................. ................................. .................................................. ............................... Crossbow? Could be......could also be a pellet rifle. Rig a pellet rifle so it can fire a bolt--is it then transformed into a bow? A spear, javalin, atlatl dart, etc. all "arch" in flight--are those archery equipment? For the most part the argument is obvious. "I like it, I want to use it during archery season, it has a string and limbs and fires a kind of arrow,so it's a bow.", or "I don't like them, a bow doesn't sit loaded, a bow doesn't have a stock and forearm, a bow has to be drawn in the presence of game--that's the primary challenge of bowhunting to begin with--so a crossbow is not a bow.". My opinion is crossbows and their advocates had little to no role to play in getting archery seasons established, and they remove one of the main challenges of bowhunting (drawing and/or holdingin the presence of game). |
RE: Elitist attitude
ORIGINAL: LBR (drawing and/or holdingin the presence of game). |
RE: Elitist attitude
"I don't recall the folks that fought and lobbied for separate archery seasons to have included crossbows in that battle."
At the time, there were not very many. The vast majority of crossbow hunters USED to be vertical bowhunters and cannot anymore. The problem now is that the missinformation and the "its not a bow" comments are what is holding it back now that it is becoming more popular. In many instances these same people who fought hard for an archery season are now finding that not including crossbows was a mistake. If the ability to draw and hold a loaded bow is the definition of "archery" then I will gladly stand right next to anyone with a ultralight modern compound with 80% let off with my 9lb modern crossbow and see who wavers off target and has to lower their weapon first. Hate to tell ya...my arms are gonna get pretty tired MUCH quicker than the compound guy and even after only a few minutes the compound will be MUCH more accurate than I will due to me being less steady holding up this extra weight. So THAT argument is lost. "I will add, the extra challenge, that in most circumstances, you have to stand up to shoot a bow.I say most. But I notice most do not with a crossbow. I know I have had deer come on me plenty of times, and that extra challenge of having to stand and draw, was too much to take the shot. A crossbow would have been fairly easy. " So what do you have to say about the button buck I took with my long bow this season from a folding chair that I popped behind some brush??? You want challenge??? Try moving a crossbow from your lap to your shoulder unnoticed....I see very few tree sitting archers get up before taking a shot. One of the reason short axle to axle compounds are so popular. again, a crossbow is not any easier. Wyvern Wyvern |
RE: Elitist attitude
"Regardless though, most states do not recognize a crossbow as standard archery equipment. As I keep saying--if it were, then no special permit would be required"
The ONLY reason a special permit is required is because some very vocal and ignorant special interest groups made up a bunch of lies about crossbows and their performance capabilities. "you can kill a deer at 100yrds", "They are unsafe", "they will decimate the deer herds", and my all time favorite "they are a poaching weapon". What poacher in their right mind wants to wait 20 minutes for the animal they just illegaly shot to die and then track it in the dark using flash lights???? Come on...:eek: Till someone can come up with something other than "I dont want them in my season" or " They are not a bow because "I" dont think they are a bow" this conversation is going nowhere.... Wyvern |
RE: Elitist attitude
Wyvern, my point was just the fact that most states don't recognize them as standard archery equipment. I don't stand on that definition as the reason I don't consider them a bow--states can come up with some screwy rules--but the fact remains that in most states they are not considered legal for archery season under normal circumstances.
Sure, they weigh a lot--that's why stands have shooting rails. Till someone can come up with something other than "I dont want them in my season" or " They are not a bow because "I" dont think they are a bow" this conversation is going nowhere.... Why call it a bow? Here's my take on it. A bow doesn't have a stock, it doesn't have a forearm, it can't be propped up to steady the shot, it can't sit at ready for hours on end but rather must be drawn in the presence of game.....personally I'm not too fond of trigger releases and 80+% let-off, but that's a different discussion. If a crossbow can be considered a bow, then why can't a slingshot that fires arrows be a bow? Or a converted rifle that fires bolts? I see it as a slippery slope, possibly leading to one season for all. Chad |
RE: Elitist attitude
OK...now that I calmed down a tad, I want to apologize for that last rant. I respect everyones opinions, but coming from a traditional background and moving into the other forms of archery I have a hard time seeing where this concept of what a bow comes from. It tends to set me off because we are arguing about emotions and not facts. We draw facts into that argument, but it is still comes down to your opinion and perspective is contrary to mine. Everyone is entitled to their perspectives and my slamming on them is not called for. I would like to see if I can calm this thread down abit and again appologize for ranting rather than discussing...
Wyvern |
RE: Elitist attitude
ORIGINAL: Wyvern Crossbow You want challenge??? Try moving a crossbow from your lap to your shoulder unnoticed....I see very few tree sitting archers get up before taking a shot. One of the reason short axle to axle compounds are so popular. again, a crossbow is not any easier. Wyvern |
RE: Elitist attitude
A rifle that shoots a arrow can not be conciderd a bow,now way no how.........aint going to happen read definition of BOW......A recurve crossbow does fall under the BOW clasification.......
Myself I chose compound when in a tree and recurve,longbow,compound when stalk/still hunting but when it comes to sitting in a groundblind I like to use one of my crossbows....Ive tried tree stand and stalking with crossbow and they get too heavy after a short amount of time ...... |
RE: Elitist attitude
"Anyone that has been in archery at any length, knows this is not the norm."
OK, I willfurther define my statement as"open style"tree or ladder stands. Any with the bar across the front, you are correct... Wyvern |
RE: Elitist attitude
In all fairness here, this thread has probably gone places that it was never intended to. I personaly think the "is it a bow or not" crossbow debate tends to do very little to sway either side and generaly just ends up with some bad feelings. It is what it is and at some point each of us willhave to re-define what it means to us.Ultimately, we are all working to keep archery in the forms we choose to use going and that is worthy of praise. This part of the forum is supposed to be for traditional archery discussion and I dont think we are accomplishing much here that has anything to do with traditional archery. I say we agree to dissagree, and move on to better things :)
Wyvern |
RE: Elitist attitude
I agree to agree....I'll go shoot some arrows threw one ofMY bows..;)
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RE: Elitist attitude
they remove one of the main challenges of bowhunting (drawing and/or holdingin the presence of game). You can pull an 80%, 50# compound (10# hold) rest the lower limb on your leg, and hold easily several minutes and still make a killing shot. And there are some models now adjustible up to 99% letoff. These methods and equipment seem to meet the "removes the challanges" arguement every bit as much as the xbow supposedly does. Something to think about is all. Steve |
RE: Elitist attitude
What makes it LEGAL to use during archery season depends on the state's definition--that doesn't make it a different weapon. Regardless though, most states do not recognize a crossbow as standard archery equipment. As I keep saying--if it were, then no special permit would be required. I cross the Mississippi river and that weapon changes into a non-archery thing, right ? Exaplain that to me LBR. How does it CHANGE ? You didn't use a good analogy there, you neglected to mention the limbs of the bow, and THAT is what delivers the energy to the arrow via the string. Thats what makes a bow, isn't it ? Why call it a bow? Here's my take on it. A bow doesn't have a stock, it doesn't have a forearm, it can't be propped up to steady the shot, it can't sit at ready for hours on end but rather must be drawn in the presence of game.....personally I'm not too fond of trigger releases and 80+% let-off, but that's a different discussion. Every year more and more is allowed in the definition of archery. Every year more states allow crossbows for everyone too. If a crossbow can be considered a bow, then why can't a slingshot that fires arrows be a bow? Or a converted rifle that fires bolts? I see it as a slippery slope, possibly leading to one season for all. Wyvern Crossbow do you agree that allowing scopes on crossbows is a mistake ? Take the scopes away and they are not nearly the weapon they are with them. Ok, I was willing to have an intelligent conversation with you until this statement. Anyone that has been in archery at any length, knows this is not the norm. Can ya'll not see how this thread is going though ? I feel somewhat elite in that I choose difficult archery tackle. I FEEL like I'm doing it the hard way, and seeing people take shortcuts ....... compounds & crossbows .... I wonder is they're missing something, or maybe I'm getting cheated out of something. This is a true feeling, its not something I'm rabid with but it IS something I think about. And ya'll thing EXACTLY the same way - but its not towards the compounders but towards the crossbows. Elitism, thinking, feeling, knowing that "they" are taking all the shortcuts and hunting the same seasons as you and you're working so much harder with much more primitive weapons. Aint fair is it ? If compounders can say that about crossbows, why can't I (as a recurve shooter) say that about compounds ? And why can't a self bow shooter say that about me ? |
RE: Elitist attitude
I compound hunted last fall. I had a very nice buck coming in (140" 8 point) and at 35 yards I drew on him. 35-40 yards is easy grouping with a compound. As I drew, he stopped, straight at me. I shooting sitting down, and I was at full draw, and place the lower cam on my knee. And I waited. I held at full draw maybe 90 seconds, and then he moved from my left to right, stepped out at 35 yards right with the sun rising at his back [&o]which makes for a difficult shot. Anyway, I didn't get that deer (my buddy killed him a few days later) but my point is, I didn't draw in the presence of that deer. I drew BEFORE he got into my presence, and then waited. Had the sun not been where it was, I'm 100% certain I'd have killed him. I hunted compound for years, I know what they can do.
My point is, only with a trad bow do you have to draw in the presence of game |
RE: Elitist attitude
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RE: Elitist attitude
Guys...I am staying out of this at this point. No amount of facts will change the opinions of some people and it is really just a waste of my time....
Wyvern |
RE: Elitist attitude
[*]curved piece of resilient wood with taut cord to propel arrows
A weapon consisting of a curved, flexible strip of material, especially wood, strung taut from end to end and used to launch arrows. A weapon made of a strip of wood, or other elastic material, with a cord connecting the two ends, by means of which an arrow is propelled. There's a few definitions of the word "bow". A crossbow impliments a bow, but it isn't just a bow--it's a bow plus. Along the same lines you could put a semi-automatic or automatic rifle in the same category as a single-shot. They all have the same basic parts, the semi-auto and auto are just single shot rifles plus. You could even make the stretch to include a single shot, semi-auto, and auto in the same category as a muzzleloader if you want to call a crossbow a bow. All the rifles have a stock, forearm and barrel, all fire a bullet and use powder being ignited to propell the bullet--now try explaining to the game warden why you feel it's just fine to use a semi-auto .270 during muzzleloader season--after all, they are the same weapon, right? Again, I have no problem with the weapon itself, or with people who enjoy them. I simply don't see them as being just another type of archery equipment anymore than I see a semi-auto rifle as being just another type of muzzleloader. Chad |
RE: Elitist attitude
Guys...I am staying out of this at this point. No amount of facts will change the opinions of some people and it is really just a waste of my time.... Wyvern Everyone has their own set in stone beliefs and we can argue or discussit til' we're blue in the face. We're all right andeach one of usknow it. Nothing is going to change that and we'll only go another 1,000 pages with the same positions. |
RE: Elitist attitude
curved piece of resilient wood with taut cord to propel arrows A weapon consisting of a curved, flexible strip of material, especially wood, strung taut from end to end and used to launch arrows. A weapon made of a strip of wood, or other elastic material, with a cord connecting the two ends, by means of which an arrow is propelled. There's a few definitions of the word "bow". A crossbow impliments a bow, but it isn't just a bow--it's a bow plus. I like discussing these things, I think its very important. Views DO change - look at how 30 years agao compounds were hated, and now they're the bulk of what archers use. Opinions change guys |
RE: Elitist attitude
I've purposely left compounds out of my replies, because that's not what the thread was about. That hasn't changed anything concerning whether or not a crossbow is a bow.
Again, at best, a crossbow is a bow, plus--just like an automatic rifle is a muzzleloader, plus. That's my opinion--I don't hate 'em, I don't think less of someone because they like them, I've even shot a few and it was fun for a little while.......but they aren't bows. Chad |
RE: Elitist attitude
LBR I'll get one more post in then I'll let it die for now
I've purposely left compounds out of my replies, because that's not what the thread was about. That hasn't changed anything concerning whether or not a crossbow is a bow. That's my opinion--I don't hate 'em, I don't think less of someone because they like them, I've even shot a few and it was fun for a little while.......but they aren't bows. You don't think they're bows, 2,000 years says they are. You don't think they're bows, but several states allow them in general archery - are they bows in one state, then cross the Mississippi and become something else ? No, still bows, just not legal for everyone to use ! After 15 pages I'm settled a bit more into believing in the "let it all in" season. IF it doesn't negatively affect my seasons or bag limits, allow it, because I cannot truly prove that compounds and the like degrade hunting. I think they do, but proving it I cannot. I DO know hunting and bowhunting is losing the war and ARA's. I know canned hunting, this horn lust that dominates hunting shows and the hunting industry - its killing what hunting is. I think technology plays a big part in all that too. Spend time on tradgang, and you'll see a different kind of people than you will on hunting.net's bowhunting forums. I believe thats because they KNOW a different kind of hunting based soley on the equipment they use and what comes from that. |
RE: Elitist attitude
I've been browsing through this thread. It seems to have taken on several different views or prespectives. Having started hunting in the late 60's, my first hunting equipment being a longbow, cause that's all there was, longbows or recurves. I really don't understand the elitist attitudes. I have hunted with bows, rifles, shotguns and pistols, through the years. And hunt almost exclusively with my longbow anymore. Not to be an elitist, maybe I am just a romantic old fool, but how I hunt and nostalga is more important to me now - the hunt for the hunt's sake. Ten years ago the age opf the average hunter was 41, today it is 51 and I hope 10 years from now it is NOT 61! We need young people in the outdoor sports. And we need to be united not separated. A hunter should not be judged by what he carries in his hand, but by the values and ethics that he or she carries in their heart and soul, which is intrinsic to one's nature.
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RE: Elitist attitude
ORIGINAL: Big Duane It is alsomore demanding to be proficient, making the outcomes so much more worth it. The more you put in, the more you get out type of thing. burniegoeasily yep, you nailed my conflict, I know what you're saying. However, shooting an ACS with carbons is almost the same "shooting" as a self bow with cane shafts - a difference of FPS but other than that, the shooting remains the same doesn't it ? Matt / PA look back at yourself over the past 5 years. Where you came from as a compound shooter, and where you are now. What you shoot now is dramtically more difficult than a compound. I've bet you $$ you could pick up anyones compound right now, and within minutes shoot better at 50 yards than you can with your stick bow at 25 yards. Compounds are THAT much better, they're designed to be easy, and very shootable, thats why most bowhunters use them. Which leads me to this thinking - is bowhunting suppose to be that easy ? Compounds are just a wee bit harder than crossbows, there is a solid argument that compounds are actually EASIER, because of their quietness, light mass weight and speeds all combines into one. Is that what bowhunting is suppose to be ? Easy ? Why or why not ? When comparing self bows to a Widow, you can still see its very similar. Compounds and crossbows are radically different. Like comparing an 1880's flintlock with loose powder, patches and balls with a 2008 TC Encore,stainless steel, plastic stock,pellets, shotgun primers and 3x12x55 leopuld scope - are they really both muzzleloaders ? Because I choose trad bows doesn’t make me better than those who don’t. If you choose a more difficult path, shouldn't it be recognized as such ? Why shouldn't there be a hard line distinction between the difficulty in weapons used ? A compound bow and the hunting that comes from it is NOT the same accomplishments as a recurve/longbow hunt and the hunting that comes from it. Its not, not one example can I think of that if you remove the compound and replace with a stick bow does the situation become much more difficult, and like you said, the rewards also increase. Yes, I understand each persons own challenges - its not about that. Its about what is and isn't more difficult, about the continuing progress of technology to easier and better, and the affects it has on bowhunting as a whole. |
RE: Elitist attitude
ORIGINAL: Big Duane LBR I'll get one more post in then I'll let it die for now I've purposely left compounds out of my replies, because that's not what the thread was about. That hasn't changed anything concerning whether or not a crossbow is a bow. That's my opinion--I don't hate 'em, I don't think less of someone because they like them, I've even shot a few and it was fun for a little while.......but they aren't bows. You don't think they're bows, 2,000 years says they are. You don't think they're bows, but several states allow them in general archery - are they bows in one state, then cross the Mississippi and become something else ? No, still bows, just not legal for everyone to use ! After 15 pages I'm settled a bit more into believing in the "let it all in" season. IF it doesn't negatively affect my seasons or bag limits, allow it, because I cannot truly prove that compounds and the like degrade hunting. I think they do, but proving it I cannot. I DO know hunting and bowhunting is losing the war and ARA's. I know canned hunting, this horn lust that dominates hunting shows and the hunting industry - its killing what hunting is. I think technology plays a big part in all that too. Spend time on tradgang, and you'll see a different kind of people than you will on hunting.net's bowhunting forums. I believe thats because they KNOW a different kind of hunting based soley on the equipment they use and what comes from that. |
RE: Elitist attitude
millerhunter13
why do you look down on crossbows, a bow is a bow, you shouldnt be looking down on what others like, but you should be trying to keep hunting going. Right ? You as a compounder look down on crossbows because they aren't the same type weapon you use. I can look down at compounds for EXACTLY the same reasons you look down on crossbows, can't I ? you said that compounds are just a wee bit easier then crossbows, your so wrong their a crossbow is alot easier, it dosnt take the fine tuning like a compound does, and with a crossbow there really isnt form like with a compound or trad bow, a compound is easier, but not everyone has the time to put in to trad archery, l I can say I don't have time to shoot a compound (that you say is so much harder to shoot right ? ) and therefore I need the crossbows - Like me i am just a kid, i dont have every minute for that i have school, work, my truck, all of these things, so a compound would be better, and bow hunting is bowhunting, trad hunting is like a .410 you have to be able to get a deer in closer and you have to be able to make the shot, the compound is like a 12 ga. alot more range, and is easier to hit a deer with, both are still hard to do. recurve / longbow / compound / crossbows the ranges of shots really never mattered much. 20-30 yards is archery range. The weapon and what its capable of though ....... that REALLY changes the moment of truth when you're ready to release an arrow. Crossbows and compounds make it so much easier. Its not a gimme, but i can tell you straight up that if you take a crossbow hunting next fall, you'll have no more P&Y bucks within 20 yards because of it. You MIGHT find an easier shot by having that crossbow, but so too is a compound giving that same easy |
RE: Elitist attitude
Another fact on xbow vs compounds:
IBO (International BOWHUNTERS Org)has a xbow class. They shoot the same courses as the compounds. The winning compound scores are ALWAYS HIGHER!!!. How could that be if xbows are more accurate? And the xbow shooters shoot from a kneeling, braced position - far more stable then a frrehand compound shot. Steve |
RE: Elitist attitude
this is rediculous....[&:]
how many people shoot compounds and dedicate their lives to shooting one , vs say a Crossbow shooter.... very few people use Crossbows compared to Compound bow, and ill guarantee that the people who use crossbows dont spend the time with the equipment necesarry to shoot "high scores"...you know why i can guarantee that????? Because im the Best.....SUCKA!!!!!!!!!!:D andbecause Most people that shoot crossbows are taking the easy way out , Lazyman i dont need to practice aproach....which is fine, a crossbow isnt something that you need to practice much with to be proficient enuff to hunt with...same as a shotgun....sight it in and your ready to rock....all you have to do is know your effective range. Practice is what makes the Shooter, not just any practice but perfect practice, and thereare plenty of Cats out their that are shooting their compounds 2-3-4-5 times a week.....thats why their scores are higher. i dont know one guy with a Crossbow that puts that kind of effort into practice. question forBig Duan your saying your better than Compound shooters.....but you hunt with one???? i dont get it....it doesnt matter if you think your better than compound shooters any way. you know Why????? Because im the BEST!!!!!:D |
RE: Elitist attitude
i dont know one guy with a Crossbow that puts that kind of effort into practice. Thank you. Steve |
RE: Elitist attitude
Crossbow: A Medieval weapon popularized the French so they could get their middle finger-less archers back in the war.
I have a copy of Fred Bear's "Archers Bible" laying around here somewhere. In it, there is a chapter dedicated to crossbows. So if Fred Bear recognized them to be archery equipment, so do I. The thing I hate about this whole thing, is that with a compound bow, all you read in the ad's is "speed, speed, speed" and in the crossbow ads, you read "power, power, power" And if you ask your average Joe Average why he's buying a crossbow, he's going to tell you he doesn't have all year to put into a craft to miss a deer on opening day. Traditional archery is more about the art of archery, than the science of fiber and pulley. Traditional archery is about woodcraft and lore, the "how to" of the more difficult aspects of the hunt. If you ask me for a solution, here's what I'm going to tell you, "In Michigan, the archery season is split into two parts. Oct 1thru Nov 15. Nov 15 thru Nov 30 is firearm season. Archery resumes Dec1 and runs thru Jan 1st Muzzleloader (also allowed in firearm is Dec 10 thru Dec 20) Well, here's what I think. After firearm season, give the deer a week to settle back down then, on Dec 7, open a 21 day "primitive arms season" Bows, crossbows (notice I separate the two), sidelock-only charcoal burners, heck, shoot a goddamm cannon if you want to. but no metallic cartridges, smokeless powder, or in-line ignition, OR OPTICAL SIGHTS " |
RE: Elitist attitude
"And if you ask your average Joe Average why he's buying a crossbow, he's going to tell you he doesn't have all year to put into a craft to miss a deer on opening day"
OK...as a person who makes his living selling archery equipment, and in particular crossbows, I can tell you this is not true. It is a steriotype that anti crossbow people have thrown out there along with other missinformation.Most are avid archers that enjoy the sport and shoot regulary to not only maintain proficiency, but for the sheer joy of archery. Yes, there are those that sight it in, put it away and pull it out the day before season opens to make sure it is still sighted in and wander into the woods. Hate to tell you, I can name quite a few compound shooters, that do the exact same thing. All the gadgets attached to a modern compound allow for a very quick success rate on the range and after the 7th or 8th bullseye quite a few compound shooters feel they are "ready".Unfortunately, while workingfor a large retailer I havebeen involved in selling and setting up a compound bow to a brand new archer only to find out at the register that them and their brother-in-law are leaving in the morning to go hunting for the first time. There is a reason that I am very carefull dressing out a deer that I dont cut myself on someone elses bad shot broadhead stuck somewhere in the animal. There are also quite a few trad guys that should spend a few more months on a range before they go into the woods as well. Give me a complete novice archer than has at least some ability to focus and a properly set up compound and in 20 minutes and I will have him drilling bullseyes at ethical hunting ranges. I have done this countless times.If the ease of mastery is all that is of concern then ban compounds. Ease of mastery does not make it "not archery". So what was the point of this thread again????? Wyvern |
RE: Elitist attitude
andbecause Most people that shoot crossbows are taking the easy way out 100% exactly the same reason people shoot compounds. I shot a compound last year when I was hunting deer - I took my recurve and compound both to Canada but hunted 100% with the recurve. Why ? Because with that compound I copuld pick it up not having shot it in 3 months and have inches accuracy at 30-35-40 yards and beyond. I took it because I wanted easier. Ask yourself this - if you don't want crossbows in archery season, really truely dig down and decide WHY, it will almost certainly be because they're a different kind of bow, the mechanics of it etc. Traditional recurve/longbow shooters canuse the SAME EXACT reasoning to say they don't want compound in archery season. Thats a 100% true, and when you realize that you come to two conclusions. #1 allow anything in archeryseason that is archery, or #2 we need to set seasons based on levels of equipment. What we have right now is inconsistant, and the tides are changing every year to allow crossbows in archery season. Why ? Because there is no argument against having them anymore vs compounds. Its not so much an issuefor trad shooters - but compounders are faced with some reality checks for sure. |
RE: Elitist attitude
ORIGINAL: SteveBNy i dont know one guy with a Crossbow that puts that kind of effort into practice. Thank you. Steve Also, Im not sure what the law is where everyone else is at....but i think its fair to say that where they are allowedCrossbow should beits ownseparate season. if it runsinside of Bow season Fine. #2 we need to set seasons based on levels of equipment. on the same note Maybee People useing Traditional (Recurve, lonbow, selfbow) without sights and gadgets should get a week long season all to themselves,Before "bow season".... the problem with all this is where does it stop....where does it start...where do you draw the line......i dont have any problem or issues with the way the law is as it stands....Nobody bothers me while im hunting...and i like to see other people get kills,What they use doesnt matter. i thinkfor some it all boils down to Jelousey/selfishness issuesthat they have, some people think that they own gods woods andthe animalsin it....and they would probably like to be the only person in the world allowed to hunt. they get mad when theyhear about aguy hunting with a Shotty getting a nice deer 100 yards from their bow stand vice versa...thinking it should have been his kill. its just stupidity, the laws are ok the way they are if you ask me....could they be Improved or Tweaked a little Probably, but they arent bad the way they are. |
RE: Elitist attitude
ORIGINAL: burniegoeasily Its bad if you are a jerk about it and down grade everyone on their chosen hunting practice. If you have a live and let live attitude, no problem pushing yourself. In my state the compound shooters tend to be extremely anticrossbow, yet what many of them are shooting is little different other than lacking a stock. Ironically, they view trad shooters as an ideal, even though the vast majority of them would never choose a trad bow to hunt. Go figure...  |
RE: Elitist attitude
"but i think its fair to say that where they are allowedCrossbow should beits ownseparate season. if it runsinside of Bow season Fine."
Why??? So you can have the woods to yourself for a few weeks??? The compound bow in many states is the ONLY reason that there is a bow hunting season at all. If it were not for the ease of use and short learning curve and the ability to hold only 10 or less pounds at full draw, there would not be enough "bow hunters" to get the states to even recognize their existance. Hate to point this out, but the average age of a traditionalist is not getting any younger, and the VAST majority of compound users all "used to hunt with a recurve till I could not pull it back anymore". Well, guess what...those same hunters are now finding that even a compound is getting more dificult. You going to "kick them out of the club" because they are not able to shoot what YOU consider a bow??? Elitism...arrogance....pigheadedness...anal-cranial inversion, call it what you want, but non of the anti crossbow people can come up with any argument besides "I dont want them in my season competing with me for MY deer". Grow up... I shoot a long bow I made...wood arrows with feathers that I made....stored in a quiver I made...with no tree stand, or range finder, or scents, or any other item that will allow me to take "the easy way". How arrogant and selfish am I that I would prevent someone else from enjoying being in the woods, and adding their hard earned cash to the F&G departments that help gaurentee I have a place to hunt that may actually have a few deer in it simply because I think their equipment is "not archery" when any half wit can clearly see that it is... This thread went from being a question of the validity oftraditional archers thinking they are better than anyone else, to the justification of seperating every concievable form of archery into seperate seasons to allow a few selfish individuals the illusion that they are"special".Did Santa not bring you that train set you wanted so badly or something??? OK...lets turn this around...Lets give everyone seperate seasons.....Primitive gets the first 2 weeks, then traditional, then compound (finger release only), then compound with release, then crossbow....then we can go intoALL the gun divisions. HOWEVER...you can ONLY shoot yourform of archery during THOSE TWO WEEKS and not before or after...Seems only fair to me... How much crying and kicking and screaming would THAT cause??? You wait ALL year long to hunt and only can go for a few days before" your season" is over. Lets hope "your season" is during pre rut, or is not flooded out with fall rains, or a sudden heat wave or something...Gee, that would be too bad, wouldnt it? There should be only 2 season...archery and gun...that is it. "twang" or "boom". SO, now that I went against my better judgement and got back into this multi page pile of stinking arrogance can someone PLEASE tell me what the purpose of this thread is other than to further divide an already fractured sport???? Wyvern |
RE: Elitist attitude
 ........I gave up on this being how I see bow hunting as just that HUNTING...Limbs,string and arrow.... |
RE: Elitist attitude
ORIGINAL: Wyvern Crossbow "but i think its fair to say that where they are allowedCrossbow should beits ownseparate season. if it runsinside of Bow season Fine." Why??? So you can have the woods to yourself for a few weeks??? The compound bow in many states is the ONLY reason that there is a bow hunting season at all. If it were not for the ease of use and short learning curve and the ability to hold only 10 or less pounds at full draw, there would not be enough "bow hunters" to get the states to even recognize their existance. Hate to point this out, but the average age of a traditionalist is not getting any younger, and the VAST majority of compound users all "used to hunt with a recurve till I could not pull it back anymore". Well, guess what...those same hunters are now finding that even a compound is getting more dificult. You going to "kick them out of the club" because they are not able to shoot what YOU consider a bow??? Elitism...arrogance....pigheadedness...anal-cranial inversion, call it what you want, but non of the anti crossbow people can come up with any argument besides "I dont want them in my season competing with me for MY deer". Grow up... I shoot a long bow I made...wood arrows with feathers that I made....stored in a quiver I made...with no tree stand, or range finder, or scents, or any other item that will allow me to take "the easy way". How arrogant and selfish am I that I would prevent someone else from enjoying being in the woods, and adding their hard earned cash to the F&G departments that help gaurentee I have a place to hunt that may actually have a few deer in it simply because I think their equipment is "not archery" when any half wit can clearly see that it is... This thread went from being a question of the validity oftraditional archers thinking they are better than anyone else, to the justification of seperating every concievable form of archery into seperate seasons to allow a few selfish individuals the illusion that they are"special".Did Santa not bring you that train set you wanted so badly or something??? OK...lets turn this around...Lets give everyone seperate seasons.....Primitive gets the first 2 weeks, then traditional, then compound (finger release only), then compound with release, then crossbow....then we can go intoALL the gun divisions. HOWEVER...you can ONLY shoot yourform of archery during THOSE TWO WEEKS and not before or after...Seems only fair to me... How much crying and kicking and screaming would THAT cause??? You wait ALL year long to hunt and only can go for a few days before" your season" is over. Lets hope "your season" is during pre rut, or is not flooded out with fall rains, or a sudden heat wave or something...Gee, that would be too bad, wouldnt it? There should be only 2 season...archery and gun...that is it. "twang" or "boom". SO, now that I went against my better judgement and got back into this multi page pile of stinking arrogance can someone PLEASE tell me what the purpose of this thread is other than to further divide an already fractured sport???? Wyvern "the problem with all this is where does it stop....where does it start...where do you draw the line......i dont have any problem or issues with the way the law is as it stands....Nobody bothers me while im hunting...and i like to see other people get kills,What they use doesnt matter. " and this "i thinkfor some it all boils down to Jelousey/selfishness issuesthat they have, some people think that they own gods woods andthe animalsin it....and they would probably like to be the only person in the world allowed to hunt. they get mad when theyhear about aguy hunting with a Shotty getting a nice deer 100 yards from their bow stand vice versa...thinking it should have been his kill. its just stupidity, the laws are ok the way they are if you ask me....could they be Improved or Tweaked a little Probably, but they arent bad the way they are." i dont care what you use. some people are Crybaby's and i understand that....thats why the law is the way it is and it more than likely wont be changed.....Lets face it Crossbow shooters and Traditional shooters are a huge MINORITY when it comes to "bowhunting". Deal with it......i dont expect the state to cater to my needs....and i dont feel like im at a disadvatageor that Compounders are stepping on my toes. but what happens if they lump Crossbows in with Compound nation wide for a full 3 month season. Compound shooters will switch to crossbow and Gunners will too.....then you have all these people with crossbowsout in the woods at the same time shooting at eachother because they are pissed off. the law is fine the way it is.... do Crossbowers feel discriminated against or something??? |
RE: Elitist attitude
"but what happens if they lump Crossbows in with Compound nation wide for a full 3 month season. Compound shooters will switch to crossbow and Gunners will too.....then you have all these people with crossbowsout in the woods at the same time shooting at eachother because they are pissed off."
What happens is the same thing it did inOhio and every other state where a crossbowis just "another bow". The deer population continues to grow and the archers see no change in their ability to hunt sinceextreamly few gun hunterscare to actually change their tactics to getclose enough to game to use a "bow". The crowds of gun hunters charging thru the woods with crossbows DOES NOT HAPPEN!! Proven, time and again. That and the vast majority of compound hunters, if they can still comfortably draw their bows, will not switch to a crossbow even if it was open to them. All it really does is allow either new archers an alternative to the sport, and those of us thatdont particularly like compounds (myself for instance)the ability to broaden our options of equipment. It is a bow...why not allow it?? "do Crossbowers feel discriminated against or something??? " Yes, and righfully so...it is a bow..that has been proven over and over again and yet there is always someone holding a full on Mathews that claims he is an "archer" and he is holding a "bow" but my medieval crossbow is illegal. That is discrimination. If the law allows that something that is technologicaly as far from a long bow as a compoundis a bow, then there should be no argument that a crossbow...which in many instances is LESS high tech than most compounds should also be allowed. It is a stupid argument. A crossbow should have no more right to a "special season" than a compound, and since a compound is considered a bow then the point is made that "archery season" includes crossbows. *You dont like crossbows, fine, you are entitled you your opinion. That you want to limit the use of another bow simply to keep the woods you yourself is arrogant and ignorant. You are under the delusion that crossbows will be the end of hunting as you know it and that has been proven not to be the case. You feel that it is not a bow, that has been proven not to be the case. All the "proof" is not going to change your mind. I can accept that.But I dont see where your attitude is doing anything to promote archery or hunting overall. Crossbows are not for everyone. If a few things had happend differently in history the crossbow mayhave overshadowed the vertical bow. Imagine that.We would now all be shootingcrossbows and complaining that a long bow is "not a bow" and it should not be allowed in "our season". It is all a matter of perspective.... * the use of "you" in this section is not directed at any one idividual. I am speaking in general terms and this is not meant to be a direct slam or attach on any idividual on this thread. It comes accross that way and wanted to head off an issue. Wyvern |
RE: Elitist attitude
Anyway, say Wyvern have you heard anything more on the recurve for the Vortex yet ?...
4 hunting seasons 1st 3 weeks...longbow,recurve only...... 2nd 3 weeks...crossbow only..... 2 week non hunting durring prime rut..... 3rd 3 weeks...compound only 4th and last 3 week gun(rifle,black powder,pistol).. there ya have it and this is the LAW that was put in place in 2009....and it aplies to all privit or public land....this was put into place to give all hunters and elite groups a fare and timewise hunting opertuneity to hunt with out worring about the other type of hunter.. Since this is LAW there is also a 2 week NO HUNTING time witch falls durring the prime rut,No hunter may enter the wood carring any said weapon durring this time and if caught will lose all hunting privlages for life..... Trophy only Hunters must apply and recive permit for this hunt and all meat must be taged and signed in for distribution.Failer to fowllow this will be reson for all hunting privlages to be revolked for life... This is what will and can happen if we are not carefull...... |
RE: Elitist attitude
I dont hate crossbows or people that hunt with them
if your disabled then you should be able to use them. during the same season asArchery season,i dont understand why some states have a complete ban. you have To define whats archery....whats a Bow... you cant keep bluring the line untill their isnt one, and it ends up anything goes ultimately. if they lump Crossbow in with compound...over time.... LOok at it like this....what did a Compound look and shoot like in the 70's..(Many still chose Recurve/longbows)...wood riser with recurve Limbs and Wheels with 50% letoff for the most part....Minimum speed gain over a Recurve....Now look at a compound....it doesntfeel anything like one from the 70's same with crossbow over time more and more will use them they will get better and better and afrter a while a bow isnt a bow....and archery isnt archery....is that the Make beleive that you say others speak of? You cant Change the Definition of something because you feel descriminated agaist... a Crossbow is a Crossbow....Disabled needs them to level the playing field, if you arent disabled why should youbeallowed an advantage over joe hunter.So why isnt it allright for JoeHunter to bait his deer if hes using an inferior weapon. ...where do you draw the line???? whencompoundscame to be....ill guaranttee that they never imagined that they would end up beingwhat they are today....when they let them in they looked alot like recuves but had Wheels....but where shotwith the same Basic form as A traditional bow....THATS THE DIFFERENCE. what happens if you throw crossbows into the mix over time? now i think im gonna go do some fishing with Dynomite y'all wont mind will you. it really doesnt matter to me but there are some interesting points Theory's about the issue.....either way it doesnt bother me, but it must really suck to feel discriminated against......you as a crossbow hunter shouldnt have to deal with that. if they legalize crossbow and call it archery season i wont mind....im still gonna do my thing.......you know why??????? \ i am the Best.:Dand the best can do whatever the best wants too.:D |
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