RE: Elitist attitude
 

Does it really matter what people use hunt with a bow and arrow? Isn't the whole idea behind this type of hunting to get out into the woods and enjoy it?

Are you going to make it so that if a young person wants to get out and try archery, if they are not using a traditional type of bow they are not following the spirit of the sport? Isn't it more important to get folks out there in the woods regardless of their choice of weapon?

After mastering the compound (xbows in my area are for limited ability hunters) and feeling the need to challenge themselves then move up to the longbow, as opposed to basically telling people that they are not up to snuff by taking the 'easy' way out?

There are enough other negative influences out there without sowing seeds of dissension within the ranks of the folks that are already in your camp.

You find more enjoyment hunting with a longbow, more power to you, but don't presume to lessen the way other people draw enjoyment from the sport.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Not every situation you draw/anchor/release and not every Trad shooter shoots like that. Many times I've had bear, deer, elk look at me while I'm about half drawed. Try holding a 73lb recurve at half draw for 15 seconds, your arms will be rubber! Compounds have a huge advantage on this part of it, thats common sense.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Don't get me wrong, I think crossbows are really a neat hunting tool. I have nothing against them at all I just don't relate them to archery. No different than seeing someone hunting in archery season with an open sighted .44 mag. I don't see it as driving a wedge into anything hunting related.
Guns have their own special seasons and I feel a crossbow fits better into those seasons than a general archery season.

By your argument of wanting to use the most efficienct tool possible for hunting then you could simply take that all the way to say that a scoped centerfire rifle is the most efficient method so lets do away with every other weapon because we owe it to the animal.
That's no different than you thinking of why we should use a crossbow if it is that much more efficient as a killing tool.

I don't know how else to explain it other than I don't see a crossbow as ARCHERY hunting. It has it's place in whatever season they are currently legal in and I would NEVER begrudge someone who wants to use one where legal. I welcome it as a hunting tool but don't ever expect me to welcome it with open arms in an established archery season. It's just the way I feel regardless if we make one or not.
I would never also so much as bat an eyelash at someone who was using one or desired to use one in an archery season with a disability that prevented the use of a conventional bow and arrow because regardless of how I feel about them personally I am also not shortsighted to the point of not seeing them as the next best thing to archery hunting.

They just fall into that limbo area for me of not being archery and not being quite a gun.......because of how they are aimed and fired they slide to that side of the scale for me.
Nothing more or less.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

That makes allot of sense! During the ML season.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Thanks for not littering anymore....

when you come back....Just remember who's the Champ and whos the Chump.....im the best and thats all you need to remember.

now leave and dont come back unless you have a Traditional bow,
and when you get one comeback andpost pics of it, and brag about how your better than everyone else.....even the old(handicap) farts that get to use their Cossbow.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

LOL!
Matt, I understand what you are saying. I just believe it is wrong thinking. I've hunted enough with crossbows to believe differently.
Number One Fretter, you are funny! But are you as good as I think you think that Matt thinks you think you are?

RE: Elitist attitude
 

OK...So...since I shoot a long bow with home made wood arrows during bow season, and my homemade 700year old design CROSSBOW during crossbow season, is my crossbow considered traditional (as in the way our forefathers did it??) and if that is the case, then my crossbow (which took a cow elk last season by the way) with no sites, wood bolts, feathers, and nothing but muscle cocking it (at 185lbs it is a bit of work mind you) is the "traditional" equivilent to a modern crossbow. Just as a long bow is the "traditional" equivilent to a compound. Yes, the learning curve on a modern crossbow is shorter than a compound, but with the exception of the Stryker, they are all no more efficient (most are less) than a modern compound, and DO require practice as they are easier to screw up a shot with than any rifle. Ultimately we are all "archers" and the elitest attitude that was the start of this thread can be found on all sides. Kinda sad actually. I know of quite a few trad and compound archers that one day found that they could not shoot their choice of weapon anymore and had to go to a crossbow or sit home and watch Tred Barta make an ass of himself. Many of these same people were no longer welcome by their "friends" at their clubs because then "turned to the dark side". One of these days this argument will end and we will all be the better for it...

Wyvern

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Why not???????

youCould have drawn to your anchor, and if he doesnt move in that half a second.... you could have aimed and been ready to shoot in another....

at least with that style....d/a/r....instinctive or gap shoot doesnt matter....gap becomes more like instictive the more proficient you get...enabling you to hit your mark really fast.


i used to like to anchor and hold for 3 to five seconds. im doing better now that irelease faster.....i know that the aim is correct from all the practice.

all the extra time at anchor, was making me second guess my training/instict.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

I've been around Traditional shooters since I was able to walk and I'd say 70% of them held at there anchor for a good 3 seconds. I would much rather shoot like that myself but that 73lbs is a bit much to be holding that long. Everyone has there different styles of shooting, were not all the same by no means!

RE: Elitist attitude
 

SCH i edited my post above....your right everyones different for sure.


i used to like to anchor and hold for 3 to five seconds. im doing better now that irelease faster.....i know that the aim is correct from all the practice.

all the extra time at anchor, was making me second guess my training/instict



but its fun to see/hear how others do things.

i probably hold at anchor for 1-2 seconds while i double check everything....whats it matter 3-8 seconds for a accurate trad shot is a lot faster than i can do comfortable with my compound....those seconds are precious.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

I couldn't agree with you more!;) I shoot much better too releasing right away, I just wish I could hold it back longer. A person can learn allot by watching other folks. The day I quit learning is the day I better call it quits!!

RE: Elitist attitude
 

That's just impressive plain and simple. [:-]

I think you are seeing my argument relating to the much more extreme modern designs but even looking at your awesome homemade crossbow I still get that twinge of not having to pull it back and hold it back at the moment of truth.
That's what separates arechery and crossbows for me.

I know of at least 3 record book animals that I screwed up by drawing to soon, or too late or not at all that would have been slam dunks with a crossbow. I watched them run off because I wasn't good enough. I still need that challenge of having to decide when to draw the string back and having to hold the bow up to make a shot.

When I am old and gray or injured I may just find myself using one in archery season because like I said it probably is the next closest thing you can get but I still will not consider it "archery" hunting. It will be doing what I have to do to still be out there enjoying that season. I'm sure I'll enjoy it just fine but I know the difference.

Everyone seems to think just because some of us don't agree that a crossbow is bowhunting or archery that we're causing some great rift in the force that is hunting in general........that's just nonsense really. It's simply another weapon and deserves it's own classification IMO. I know I'm not saying "Your evil because you want to shoot a crossbow, or want to use it in archery season" .

I just truly feel that the line in "archery" hunting is drawn vertically not horizontally and archery was never meant to be pre loaded and ready to fire by simply pulling a trigger.

I'll put it to you this way, if someone developed a device that allowed me to keep my Black Widow recurve at full draw the entire time on stand but I could release the string by hand with a homemade cedar arrow and flint broadhead I STILL would not consider that archery hunting.
That's what you're up against with me.;)

But regardless that hoemmade crossbow is AWESOME, and I'll grant you that's about as close as I'm going to get at softening on crossbows as comparable to archery hunting. LOL:D Nice job!

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Thank you :)

Though I dont agree with your opinion of what is "archery" I do understand where you are coming from. Nice to have an inteligent conversation on this subject :)

Wyvern

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Do you use a release on your compound?

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Yeah but little elves don' draw it back for me ahead of time. ;):D

RE: Elitist attitude
 

I use a Judge release that takes just over one pound to trigger and once I'm at full draw I can hold my Vulcan in my hands with my arms straight out. So big deal! LOL! At 30 yards I can pin starlings, big deal! I can't do that with my crossbow though. Hmmm that's not fair! I was thinking about using my Holo sight on my Vulcan too........ or may be an optimizer in my Peep.
I'll say that my recurves are a challenge to hunt with and I have a feeling it will be forever. Well compared to my compounds and crossbows. I think burniegoeasily put it well. It's a personal challenge not a comparison to something or someone else. I think the pee pot is full and we are littering.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Lmao!!;) Thats funny!!

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Alpha Capo machines don't shoot bows, people do. Compounds are much more accurate, thats why bowhunters for the most part use them. If you're belief in quick shooting were accurate, everyone would be using recurves. They don't, because the ability to draw and hold heavy poundage bows that are super accurate and easy to shoot far outweighs being able to snap shoot.

on crossbows let me say this - its funny how compounders will defend ALL DAY LONG that bowhunters should unite, embrace all bows for hunting, shoot whatever you want etc because that will make traditiaonalists accept the compounds. Then add crossbows into the equation and they foam at the mouth and a fight starts !

compounders want their high technology, the trigger releases, the high FPS, the fancy sights, they want as much techy stuff as they can load onto their bows to make their shooting EASIER - and they want their choices accepted by everyone too - but make it a BIT EASIER with a crossbow ? foaming at the mouth again


there is a much greater challenge there, YES !

compounds are not designed to use bare bow anymore. but no, the letoff itsself and the essentrics of the mechanics also seperate what a compound is. Its the wheels, and the breach of "drawing in the presence of game" that seperates. With a compound, you don't draw in the presence, you draw before, hold, and wait. Terribly different stuff.



TEmbry funny, thats exactly what I'm saying too, except I lump your choice of bows into the same category as crossbows.

You see, you're an elitist too. You think crossbows breaches what it and isn't archery, though truth is crossbows have been around for centuries and compounds only about 40 years. You just draw the line in one spot, me in another.

Dnk

Its something I like to discuss because it impacts our entire sport.

Do we (A) include everything or (B) draw lines in the sand ? We do (B) and WHERE those lines are is up for discussion.

And those lines change, every year.

I bet a lot of guys don't know that mechnaical releases were not allowed for decades. I bet most guys don't remember >65% letoff being illegal. I bet a lot of bowhunters don't remember mechanical heads being illegal.

Things change, and I don't remember the fights in the 60's and 70's between traditionalists and the insurgence of compounds.



Wiaxle I think it matters, yes, more and more. I think the hunting gets lost, and the killing becomes the focus and the equipment used accelerates that conversion.

more and more yes, if you want to become a bowhunter, use a recurve. if you want instance satisfaction with little dedication, practice and sense of archery, shoot a compound of crossbow. They are the shortcut to archery, the easy way to bowhunting.

I don't know anymore than giving all these shortcuts isn't the root cause of a lot of hunting's problems.

if I said the same thing and included crossbows, what say you ?




congrats Matt / PAfor joining me in our elitist attitudes ! WELCOME !

we only differ now in where the lines need drawn. right ?




look at where compounds have come, and all the technology with them. Every year rules are rewritten to allow more and more and more ...... when will it end ? At 65% letoff ? No. At mechanical releases ? No. At fibger optic sights ? No. When will it end ?





Look at this photo - check that bow out. Why didn't "we" as a hunting/bowhunting/archery community stop the advancement of technolgoy THERE ?

Matt / PA do you think you can outshoot that compound with your recurve ? 10 shots, 40 yards, what do you think the outcome would be ? What about a new Bowtech all decked out vs that compound - at 80 yards ? Results of a side by side ?

My point is, technology won't stop. The fights that split the P&Y club 35 years ago are still happening today. Why ? Technology, thats the root cause.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

This here I have to definitely agree with!!

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Exactly what is your definition of "elitest"?

I don't judge a person by the weapon they choose. I've hunted with compound and trad bow, and both have advantages and disadvantages. I choose trad gear because it's what I like, not because I feel it makes me a superior hunter. No doubt I've passed on oportunities that would have been easy shots with a compound, but I've also made shots that wouldn't have been feasible with anything other than trad gear.

As far as crossbows go, the general premise is they are "primitive", but they aren't archery equipment. There's conversion kits to make a Ruger 10/22 shoot a bolt--the ammunition doesn't define the weapon though.

'Course these days the term "primitive weapons season" is pretty much a joke--even trad bows generally use high-tech materials in their construction, not to mention high tech arrows and broadheads. I won't even start on "muzzleloaders".

As I understand it, separate archery seasons were instated because of the tiny impact they had--the equipment had huge limitations compared to gun season. Not just the weapons themselves, but the number of hunters willing to put the time and money into becoming proficient enough to use a bow and arrow as a viable hunting weapon. With all the advances since, the gap is getting smaller and smaller.

Chad

RE: Elitist attitude
 

I don't consider myself an elitest, but I do recognize there is a tremendous difference in the hunting experience based on what weapon you choose... Some require tremendous amounts of dedication, others do not... I don't think I'm "better" than a gun hunter or a compound hunter. But I do acknowledge that "my" way is the more difficult path.

This is howI sum it up.. When I see a gun kill, I think no big deal. When I see a compound kill, I think that's pretty cool. But when I see a tradbow kill, it amazes and intrigues me.. B/C I know what it took and the dedication involved. If that attitude is elitest, so be it. Idon't see them as beinga lesser hunter.. I just think they are taking the easy way out. Which for some, is the only option. And for sake of arguing, I'm talking about experienced hunters with double digit bow kills... Sure, for the newbie or casual bowhunter, the compound is a hard as they really need it to be!

Heck, I've considered going back to compound myself.. For one reason, to simplify the kill. Just not sure if I can ever get that level of satisfaction back though. Only time will tell.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Alright, Ill solve the problem. Dont post hear or even read anymore posts until you get out with a draw knife and carve your own self bow, nap your flint, and draw your arrows. Ive done all before, except the flint napping. Ill learn it. Ive got several self bows ive made and killed animals with. Ill draw me some arrows, burn the feathers, and even learn to nap. Now im the true traditionalist and all you who buy your bows and arrows are not worthy to lick my boots.


Hows that BD, top that or quit posting. ;):D

RE: Elitist attitude
 

By the way, who cares about P & Y???? Ive shot several and never register them. I hunt for the meat and the solitude. I dont do it to brag to others.

So who cares if a "faternity" is getting watered down. I don’t need the club or want their magic decoder ring. Besides, what is important about being in the P & Y? Being a member doesn’t help there conservation efforts.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

The issue is that once you define any method other than strictly traditional (which even that with modern recurves and carbon arrows is a blured definition)as "taking the easy way" it becomes an elitest statement. Are compounds easier than trad? Yes, are crossbows easier than compounds? yes, are these hunters still "archers"?? Hate to say it, but yes (even the crossbow guys) Archery still requires a precise placement of a broadhead propelled by a shaft that got its energy from the release of stored energy in a bent limb. Once "archery" is using a propellant (that Ruger 10/22 thing) and being able to take neck and head shots and be assured of a kill, then it will no longer be "archery". Even with the ease of transition from a gun to a crossbow, the VAST majority of gun hunters either will not do it, or give up the moment they realize they actually have to not only get close to an animal, but put the shot in a very small area and only take those shots when the animal cooperates by turning sidways to him. Am I impressed with a 250yrd shot that puts a bullet right in the kill zone of an animal by a gun?? Moderately, but that is not hunting to me. I personaly AM an elitest...since I can appreciate "archery" in ALL of its forms as being more dificult than gun hunting, and will be more apt to congratulate a bow kill (ANY bow) than I will a gun kill. Even with all of the tech crap out there the VAST majority of ANY bow kills are taken at 30 yrds or less. I applaude any hunter that can get close to an animal undetected and place an arrow in the right spot. I personaly dont care if he uses a stick with a string on it, or a high tech crossbow...he is still an archer.

Wyvern

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Now we got a pissing contest about P@Y?? Don't bite the hand that feeds you Burnie!! The P@Y club is the biggest supporter for us bow hunters. I am a proud member and will continue to be. The P@Y club is the farthest thing from a fraternity! The board members are your every day Joe's like you and I. Believe me I know this, I know a quite of few of the board members and there nothing like you said they are, not even close. The P@Y club headquarters are in Minnesota about 4 hours from where I live, its one hell of a place to see. Lots of information there. I would love for you to tell them what you just typed up, there expressions would be priceless!! Another thing too, just because I enter animal's in the P@Y, does that mean I'm bragging? Whatever!!

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Yes, and you have historical precedent to fall back on. Longbowmen and crossbowmen were all listed as archers on the old war muster lists. Listed as different types of archers, but archers nonetheless.

Crossbows were used in warfare - at least as far as can be determined - in341 BCE at the battle of Mai Ling in China. They have excavated bronze crossbow parts that have been tentatively dated to about 750 BCE. Crossbows could have been around much longer than that, but with no metal parts. There is nosurviving evidence but it is very possible to make crossbows with no metal parts.

The Greeks were credited with bringing the crossbow to Europe, probably brought back from Alexander the Great's campains in the east. The Romans adapted and used crossbows and spread them throughout the old empire.

Actually, the longbow is only the traditional archery weapon to descendants of the people from the British Isles. Those ofWestern and Mediterranean Europeandescent, their traditionalranged weapon, forboth war and sport,is the crossbow. Anti-crossbow sentiment is simply a surviving example of British snobbery against anything non-British. As our laws were mostly formed from British Common Law, we inherited the British aversion. It began in the Middle Ages, lasted through the Rennaisance and is still with us today.

Funny thing is, though, the old English kings weren't so averse to the crossbow that they didn't constantly employ crossbow mercenaries in their military until they finally phased out archery in favor of muskets and artillery.

I really enjoy shooting my replica midieval crossbow. I plan on making another, more powerful one this summer and repairing another I've already made but broke. They're a lot more fun than compounds and, frankly, are a lot closer to being traditional than compounds.

Consider what could happen if a 15th Century English yeoman and a Swiss crossbowman were somehow transported to today's world. Would the yeoman recognize a Bowtech Guardian as a bow? He'd probably need some explanation and convincing. Show a fresh off the rack 10 Point crossbow to the old crossbowman and, while he'd be astounded at the design and materials,he'd immediately recognize it for what it is. There has beenfar less transformation with the crossbow over the past 2500 years than there has been with compounds over the past 40 years.

I've come torealize that traditional archery has a lot more in common with crossbows than we have with compounds. Ourstickbows have changed in design and materials but still retain their age-old identity. Same with crossbows. Both areancient weapons still surviving in the modern world. Both are archery. There is really no need for the ill will and bickering, not when the Johnny-come-lately compound has alreadyoutstripped the crossbow in performance and is very comparable on ease of use.

Whichhas more rightto be included ina 'primitive weapons' season; an ancientweapon updated with modern materials or a weapon that wasn't developed until 40 years ago (long after the seasons had been established)?

Gentlemen, if you can accept inclusion of the modern compound and all it's accompanying gadgetry as archery, then you must also accept the crossbow. An unabashed elitist tells you this. [8D]

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Your not real familure with stealthycat, datamax, bigred, big duan, and all the other names he has been banned under. Im just playing by his rules. You need to get more familure with this board. Im pokeing at Big Duan. Big Duan was using P & Y as a set rule of standards that have been watered down by all the "sub par" archers. I was just pointing out how P & Y standards are not law or even that important when it comes to my hunting.

Even with that said, explain how my entering an animal in the P @ Y club benefits me or their conservation causeses? I do not denie their conservation efforts and support them in that way, but me haveing and animal registered in their books means nothing towards that effort. Its a brag book. Why would I care to have my name in it. I have many deer that could be put in there, just see no need. I do support their cause, just dont worry about the book. Do I care if people do, no. Its all up to them, really has no meaning to me. Ill respond back with your poke, Whatever.!!!!

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Again, oh no..............

I had a feeling though, thats why I stayed out.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

This I didn't know, I apologize! I thought you were poking at me on the P@Y stuff! And also excuse me for not being more familar with the board, geeze, I've only been here since September or so.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Maybe you just post too much[:-][8D]

RE: Elitist attitude
 

I didn't realize either. I quit trying to keep up with his multiple aliases at 'datamax.' Not worth the effort. Typical stealthycat 'bait and hook' routine though. I should have recognized it.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

It doesn't benefit me or you Burnie. Does everyone have to benefit from something these days when they do something? I swear this world is getting more greedy everyday! What it does to me is give the animal recognition, respect, etc. Some people think its a bragging a book, there are many hunters out there who put there animals in the books for that reason. Not I, its all about giving that awesome animal recognition and respect! I'm not saying people who don't put animals in the books don't have the same feelings I do, I know better then that. Its just what I do.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

I knew there was a reason I stayed out of this. [&:]

But, there were several very nicely stated opinions that made for decent reading.

The longer I go about this, more I could care less. I do think there are progressive steps of difficulty, but that gives people individual choice, which is a good thing. The only times I will get a bit "weapon-biased" is when the numbers of people + the ease of use, can detrimentally impact the length and or quality(read as not crowded) of a hunting season.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Sometimes things are better left unsaid! I've been guilty of it.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Just messin' with ya Steve.

Guys, I've been following this thread since the begining, and all I can say is...Archery is Archery.

Wiaxle put it exacly how I see it:
and also

I'm soon going to be getting a longbow. But I will never NOT shoot, or hunt with my compound. I love SHOOTING BOWS and I LOVE hunting. Archery is Archery guys.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

No worrys here Kyle. Shouldn't you be in class? Get your head in them books!!;)

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Thanks for reminding me[&:]Class in twenty min. Be Nice fellas.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

I can respect that, and it is a worthy cause. Like I said, I was just pokeing at Big Duan using his twitsted logic. He was using P & Y standards to try to belittle people who pursue archery in other means than his choosen methoid.

If you havent noticed, this whole post was started so Duane could be elitest and start belittleing others who he does not feel want to live to his standards. Typical flaming by the old Stealthycat

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Like I said before I apologize for not knowing who this Duane guy is. Were all good Burnie, your alright in my book!!;)

RE: Elitist attitude
 

LBR - when you think there should be restrictions put on what bows constitute being in archery season, you've started down the path. The more restrictions the more elitist you become

false - archery history was partially written by crossbows. Crossbows have been around for centuries, always relatesd to archery.

They are oft defined as not being allowed in bowhunting season, but they ARE archery


If thats your belief burniegoeasilyyou can make a good case for it for certain. However, the WAY you shoot your self bow is exactly the same way I shoot my recurve.

Compounds and crossbows are different.

what has the P&Y club done for hunting ? Answer that, and you'll know why its important.

I'm not a member, but I DO recognize what they've done.

Wyvern Crossbowyou've drawn a line to include ALL technology in archery season based on that it will not impact archery season lengths, limits etc, am I correct ?

And thats fine, you can explain your reasoning, you reasons why. Its logical, it makes some sense, I can at least see that view

Schultzy do you remember the fractures when compounds were allowed ? When greater than 65% was set ?


Arthur Pvery informative post, very well done.

I also agree with your quote there, if you allow technology, allow it. I don't think it should be allowed to be honest, so I'm on the other side of that line, but its those who scream crossbows are foul and then go shoot their tricked out compounds that befuddle me.


who had a hand in implementing many of the rules that states have for their archery season burniegoeasily? Answer that and you'll understand more the significance of what P&Y club has done


rybohunterare we there yet ?




Does it matter the username if the topic is valid ? That I spoke out against canned hunting and was banned changes not this thread or others, does it ?