RE: Elitist attitude
 

And also like a compound with which they are most closely related. The fact of the matter isit is a primitive weapon which can be hunted with. As most DNR's are notgoing to make it a seperate season they generally try to include the weapon in the season it most closely fits, which is archery, that is what some seem to have a problem understanding.

In VA they made them legal during archery, good call IMO. But after reading some of the views on why they are not bows and should not be allowed I think they should have broken down the 6 week primitive weapons season even further. Instead of archery(bow/xbow) 6 weeks with the last 2 weeks also being BP they should have said you each get two weeks and they could have made it whatever order they wanted, xbow 1 week, bow 1 week, bp 1 weekthen repeat or just have xbow 2 weeks, bow 2 weeks, bp 2 weeks. How much belly aching would the "bow" hunters make over having to lose hunting time and share the woods even more, but the truth is bp hunters andxbow hunters are doing it alreadywhy should "bow" hunters be any different? Where does the sense of entitlement come from? I don't get it, I don't even want to really.

I hunt with my compound and my recurve, I lovethem both. I also welcome xbow hunters, there are plenty of woods and plenty of deer to kill and their presence has notaffected me in the least. I have shot lots of crossbows and enjoyed shooting them, I don't hunt with one yet but I can guarantee if there ever was a special xbow season in VA or NC I would ownandhunt with one for the same selfish reason I started bowhunting 18 years ago. I wanted more time to hunt, more hunting seasonto be out in the woods. A crossbow hunter should have the same oppurtunity to extend his season and hunt with his obviously primitive weapon during theprimitve weapons season(that's another change I would support call it primitive weapons season not archery seasonand break it down from there).JMO.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Covered that early on--primitive does not equal archery.

Can't say I don't blame you for not going back and reading the whole thing, but this has been covered as well. Early archery pioneers worked hard to get an ARCHERY season established, for simple bows and arrows. Others have come along and chipped away at it, riding coattails and not working for their own season. I don't understand the "sense of entitlement" either--it's coming from those who haven't had anyone work to get a season established, but rather just try to get added into a season someone else worked to get for a different weapon.

I've never argued that even once. I've said time and again that the crossbow is a primitive weapon, and I have no problem with it being used in the primitive weapons season. I will also work to keep the archery season just that--archery season.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Minnesota is set up where you can use crossbows during the gun season, not the archery season. They can be used during the archery season with a valid permit.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

I actually have read this entire thread(haven't figured out why yet) so I'm not sure what exactly your trying to imply. You were not the only person in this thread so the questions I posted (that largely went unanswered) were not meantfor just you. I did see the references to people fighting for archery season I am just not conviced that means"everything" anymore.Because archery season was establishedyears ago that means the seasons can't evolve tofit what hunting is now?And does it also meanthat anyone whowants evensmall changesis "riding coattails" and should just get their own season. Right, that makes perfect sense we should approach all thing in life with those blinders on.

Archery season is primative weapons season, there is no difference. So why should2 of the three primative weapons(bows/bp) have their own part of the whole primative seasonand thethird(xbows) has nothing and not only nothing butoppositionagainst beingincluded in the archery part of theprimitive weapons season that already exists and that it fits in(since it is a bow+). And what's worse is the opposition is from hunters. That's what I don't get. How does it effect you negativelyas a bow hunter ifcrossbow hunters are in the woods? Go ahead and tell me this has already been covered, I readit and the reasoning is shallow at best and just plain greedy at worst.

Ther are over 1,000,000 deer in VA. Crossbow hunters killed around 7,000 last season and other archery hunters around 17,000. Those pricks with xbowsare killing all the deer. Right, I mean they are if you don't count the other 993,000 +otherdeer that wererunning around the woods. There are plenty of deer to go around and the small numbers of xbow hunters have arelatively small impact on the big picture, I have no problem sharing the woods it just seems like the right thing(to me of course).

LBR trust me I get it. You don't like crossbows and don't want anyone using one in "bow" season. That is your opinion and you are certainly entitled to it, and while I can understand some of the points you make but to some degreeI don't think you are doing the same, everyhting is not alwayscut and dry black and white, especially with topics like this.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

If the UBP fought to ban Xbows in archery season,they must have a good reason!

RE: Elitist attitude
 

I assumed you hadn't because you seemed to be directing questions at me that I'd already covered.

It is what it is. Archery season--bows and arrows. That's what it was established for.

I'm just not sure how to take that statement. I don't think anyone even remotely familiar with the weapons are ignorant enough to actually believe there is no difference between bows, crossbows,muzzleloaders, and in some places certain caliber single-shot centerfire rifles--all considered "primitive" weapons.

You are just wrong there, at least concerning MS (where I live). Crossbows can be used during primitive weapons season and rifle season. We (archery hunters) lost two weeks of our season to primitive weapons season a few years ago. What we have left, most hunters don't care to get out in to begin with (already went over all that also). So just what are we taking again? How are we being selfish?

Maybe you read it--you sure don't bother to try to comprehend or understand it.

It's very obvious you don't, and I don't think you care to. You say you've read the entire thread, but obviously you ignored parts of it. I've stated several times I have nothing against the weapons themselves, or the people that use them, yet you state just the opposite. Pretty sure I know my feelings better than you do.

At the risk of dragging out a ridiculously long thread even more, here's how I see it.

There's a very few die-hard crossbow enthusiasts who enjoy the weapon for the spirit of the weapon--like Wyvern and Art, who have gone as far as building true primitive replicas of the weapons. I can respect that, but they are a tiny fraction of a fraction of the minority, and even though that is the type hunter that could get a season established for them, there's not anywhere near enough of them to get anything done. Life ain't fair. They can at least use their weapon of choice in primitive weapons season, and in at least some states during gun season.

You have another small fraction, although much larger than the above still small, of disabled and elderly hunters who honestly cannot physically shoot a bow. Most states (including MS) have provisions for those people and allow them to use crossbows during archery season. I can live with that.

The majority of what's left are people who don't want to bother learning to shoot a bow and/or think the crossbow is a magical weapon far superior to a bow (it's not), but want to extend their hunting season beyond rifle and primitiveweaponsseasons. They don't care to work for getting their own season established, so the only thing left is to try to barge in on the short period of time that only bows are allowed in the hunting woods.

We have the shortest amount of time allotted for specific weapons seasons, and we generally have the least desireable time of the season (at least we do in MS). Yet because we want to keep the season what it is, and what it was fought for and established for, we are just shallow,greedy and selfish?:D Give me a break.......:eek:

Hey, your granddad worked his butt off all his life, made sacrifices, and thanks to him your father and now youare able to live a comfortable life. The next guy comes along, his granddad didn't do the work and make the sacrifices, neither did his dad, and now he isn't willing to either--but he wants you to give him an equal part of what's yours. Are you going to split what you have with him right down the middle just because he wants it? Or are you one of those shallow, greedy, selfish types?

Chad

RE: Elitist attitude
 

After reading through all this mess, im sure glad some of you dont make the laws.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Double Creek that sounds aweful like you've drawn the line, compounds aint included but you don't want to pee in anyone Cheerios

like I posted earlier, your hunt wouldn't change hardly any with a crossbow vs a compound and you'd miss opportunities with both that you wouldn't with the other. I really believe that too - but trad bows launch you into a totally different type of hunting.

question Double Creek - a recurve with peep, sights and mechanical release ....... same thing as a compound then for the most part ?

I have both, but right now I'm shooting the recurve just because. I shoot the old style Adcock pretty well too. Neither is easier, LBR could pick either one of them up and in a few shots shoot them pretty well I imagine, Double Creek too.

doesn't everybody kinda do that ? but in this game, I'm not a young guy in his first year or two or archery. I've been there and done a LOT of that. I've killed my share of animals, hunted a lot of states, and done it with rifle, muzzleloader, compound recurve and longbows. I'm saying that as a basis of yes, I in fact DO know quite a bit about it all.

I think in fact I've said that and MORE. The hunt is why I'm in the woods, the killing ? If it happens it happens, but my hunting will be 100% successful and I will have a grand time doing it.


ahhh thats the kicker though ... it IS more difficult, and thus the whole reason that archery season was spawned in the first place, forged decades ago by dedicate recurve and longbow shooters.

they GOT you the season you're in now, and compounds weren't a part of that club. Rule were changed to allow them.


brucelanthier I do not sugar coat things. I don't ***** foot around and watch stepping on toes. Its the internet, I mean geeeeeeesh, we're having a friendly debate, talking, making a few jabs etc but in truth at its core, we ARE talking about a very important issue, one thats been around for a long time and seems to never go away.

I KNOW the guy who makes his own bows and arrows and trade points is a more dedicated bowhunter than me. I know that, its 100% FACT. Its why very few do. I also know trad bowhunting is very much harder than compound shooting, thats why most shoot compounds, its EASIER. Duh, thats human nature, and its what our society has devleoped into - the easier the better. Rifle hunting is easier still.

That aint debateable, its fact, proven by looking at kill stats, who uses what and the record books, who's killing the most big animals etc.

What gets people is being lumped into the groups thats above others, and being told they hunt "easier". People don't like to hear that, as true as it is.


NEW61375 Arkansas has 5 monhts of bowhunting including crossbows. We don't need a special season for them, for compound for recurves or for longbows.


LBR

crossbows aint differnt really, and thats where you and I don't see eye to eye.

The fastest, quiestes, most accurate bows in the Arkansas woods every fall aint crossbows LBR and we allow them. Its compounds. THEY are the most superior weapon in the woods, thats why people choose to shoot them.

Realizing that, and using your logic, compounds would be the more advanced, technolgoical weapon and they need THEIR OWN season.

But we manage to handle it well, as do all states that allow crossbows. Come to find it, it doesn't bring any negatives at all.

Chad what is this thing ? A bow-plus too I imagine ?




I mean geeeeesh, you consider the above a bow ? Its not hand drawn, you don't have to draw it in the presence of game, its very likely 85% letoff or more, sights, triggers ....... THATS a bow ?






I do understand your argument. I also understand its based on a sliver of difference between how a crossbow and a compound works, its P&Y's staple argument, but in truth, where allowed, crossbows have never been the demon they've been made out to be in FACT compounds brought in millions more than crossbows ever did, more accidents, more questionable characters using them and more "be a two season hunter" kind of guys.

Sorry compounders, its the truth.


LBR - If its TRUELY all about drawing the bow, then you HAVE to be against the compound bow-pluses because they breach what drawing a bow is all about, the triggers and the high let offs. Remember, you still have to draw a crossbow too, they don't self draw :D


hell yeah ! ban the compounds ! :D


FYI crossbows were here thousand years before compounds FYI :D


hell yeah ! ban the compounds ! :D

no, it was originally established for recurves and longbows, NOT compounds

can you hunt in muzzleloader season with your trad bow ?






legal archery weapon in MN too then - glad thats been defined !




NEW61375 and here's the kicker - NEVER not ONCE has crossbows being legal led to a negative. Never. Anti-crossbow people will argue until they're blue in the face, and they cannot produce one fact to use to say crossbows can't come in. Not one. That lack of fact is why I lean toawrds allowing all bows until the point comes (if it ever does) of HAVING to do something simply because of too many animals being killed or maybe too manyhunters.

Never has that happened though

RE: Elitist attitude
 

2 seasons - archery and gun.

Powder/bang is what seperates them.

Putting the crossbow(archery) in the archery season has not hurt one bow season anywhere it has been done.

To argue putting an archery (string powered - no powder/bang) weapon into archery season will somehow give relevance to primitive guns (powder/bang) being allowed in archery follows no logic at all - in my mind.

Steve

RE: Elitist attitude
 

"If the UBP fought to ban Xbows in archery season,they must have a good reason!"

Ummm...no, that does not mean anything other than they had"A reason". Good,bad, selfish, for the good of all archers...the "reason" iswhat this debate is about. I appreciate that bowhutners want to keep it "bowhunting"( right there with ya), but excluding a bow simply because it is diferent and does not fall under "your definition" is such a waste of time. You reduce the ranks of bowhunters, give more reason for the states to open up more time to gun hunters to control the herds, and base most of yourreasons on assumptions and outright lies about crossbows and what they can/cant do and what kind of people use them. I have to deal with this attitude at the bowhunter ed level in my states. I have such a bunch of idiots wandering around with $1200 compounds refusing to teach crossbow safety (required in my state mind you) because they are "not a bow". Most have never even shot a crossbow(refuse to)and dont know its limitations. Groups like the PBS need to get their heads out of their *** and actually do something constructive for bowhunting for a change...

Wyvern

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Just for clarification, I don't know squat about the P&Y club, and don't base my opinions on anything they have decided.

BD, if anything you should know I'm consistent and stubborn. I'm still not going to get drawn into the compound part of this.

If anything, this thread has really made me think more about why I'm sostrongly against crossbows in the archery-only season.I still don't consider them to be a bow, but what really makes me nervous is what they have the potential to become. As I said several pages back, look at the difference in compound bows 10-15 years ago and now. Open the gates, give manufacturers a reason to pour money into it, the sky is the limit. Once in, there's no getting it out.

Actually it's called "primitive weapons" season (when muzzleloaders are allowed), and yes I can use a bow during that season. I can also legally ride a little motor scooter on a busy interstate. Get my drift?

Quote:

---

NEVER not ONCE has crossbows being legal led to a negative.

---

You keep forgetting the fellow from AR I had the discussion with. I would never purposely hunt the same area with someone like that for fear of moving at the wrong time/in the wrong place and getting shot by his "jump and shoot bow". That was his main argument for using a crossbow--because he could take a shot with it in a split second.

In your opinion, but not according to most state game regs, or in my opinion. Walking around/sitting with it cocked/loaded for an indefinate amount of time, the ability to take a split-second shot, stock/forearm/trigger--those are aspects of a rifle and a crossbow, but not a bow, and very much separates them from a bow.

Those who wish for one season are liable to get what they wish for. Ok, let the crossbows into the archery season. Muzzleloader advocates can say "hey, you let them in--flintlocks are basically the same as crossbows--primitive, low impact, one shot, close range.......we want in too!!!" and on and on and on--on top of the obvious fact that I've mentioned over and over--open the gates, the tech race is on, and no telling what they (crossbows)will be capable of in the next 10 years.

Is it that hard for us to see past our noses? Are we too stupid to look at where compounds have gone in the last 10 years?

RE: Elitist attitude
 

I guess that depends on what type of compound you are talking about.... Are we talking about barebow compound or totally tricked out? The only difference I see between a compound and the bow you describe above is the letoff factor... Which granted, is huge....

I make no bones than 99.9% of the time, a compound is an easier weapon to use.... As is a recurve over a selfbow... Its all the goodies that come with a compound that make it easier, primarily the mechanical release....

RE: Elitist attitude
 

My comprehension is fine and fortunatleyI am able to seewe are talking from not only different opinions but different kinds of exposure to the same topic. There is no need totalk "at" me or down to me Ias I'm sure you know opinionsare just that, opinions,they arerarely a 100% right or 100% wrong, there is usually some middle ground of understanding the other side/perspective(doesn't mean you have toagree).You are entitled to yours and I'm entitled to mine and I am not trying to convince you to change yours, I'm just offering a different perspective from a different region with a different history. I'm not sure how you can sayyou have no problem with xbows or xbow hunters andin the same breathsay I don't want themhunting in bow season, that seemslike a contradiction. Where I will say I am ignorant is to your(MS) game laws and when I am speaking I am not speaking about MS I am speaking from my perspective (VA) which has enjoyedpositive results with xbows in archery season. What may be "completely wrong" for you or your state is right in my state and what I am used to.

Of course the weapons used in the primitive weapons season are different(our two states recognize them completely differentlyVA doesn't even use that term anymore), what I meant was they are all still primitive weapons and I don't understand the need for all of the seperation. Between archery & bp I canunderstand but why bows & x bows, again I am looking at this from an area where xbows were simply added to bow season and it worked out very well.Based on whatyou said you lost two weeks of bowhunting to primitive weapons season which I agree would suck, and after looking at the site(MSWFP) I see where you can xbow hunt during gun and bp season(or primitive) I guess I just don't see what difference it would make if they had made it legal duringgun and archery, but again that is because I am from a state that did it that way and it worked,also we can use our bows during all seasons(even bp)if we follow that seasons harvest regs.

Was your archery season from Oct. 1 (or15 Zone 2) through Nov.16 andcan you still bowhunt during the firearms season or primitive seasons? That seems like a fairly long bow season(4-6 weeks), is that "the least desireable" time to be out there? What two weeks went away, wasthe late primitive weapons seasona late bow season in the past or was it the early one? I am just curious andattempting to be a little lessignorant of your state byasking.

I do think if you experienced VA's changes and transitions you would have a better idea of my side and my point that crossbows had little impact just like if I lived there I might feel differently. I know many hunters are not selfish/greedy but I have met many who are and haveheard many(in my state) who opposed xbows but had no real reason other than they don't want them in "their" bow season and just hated x bows for whatever reason, and then aftercrossbows werelegalized and nothing really changedit just seemed likemuch ado about nothing. In my mind it is Ok for someone to just prefer to shoot a xbow if they want just like I might prefer a compound or my recurve, I don't consider myself more of a "bow hunter" because of the particular weapon in hand and especially after seeing the results here in VAI don't care what someoneprefers to huntwith as long as they are safe, legal, and enjoying themselves.

Everthing above that cameafter this sentence,
was interesting, I guess.:eek: Quote us your sources on those stats.;)

Are these your season dates from last year?




DEER
SEASON DATES
LEGALDEER

Archery

[align=center][align=center]Oct. 1 , 2007-
Nov. 16, 2007[/align][/align]

Youth Gun
(Youth less than 16 years old)

[/align]
[align=center][align=center]Nov. 10, 2007-
Nov. 16, 2007[/align][/align]
Either-Sex on private lands and authorized state or federal public lands.

Gun
(with dogs)
[align=center][align=center]Nov. 17, 2007-
Nov. 30, 2007[/align][/align]

Primitive Weapon
[align=center][align=center]Dec. 1, 2007-
Dec. 14, 2007[/align][/align]


Gun
(without dogs)
[align=center]Dec. 15, 2007-
Dec. 16, 2007[/align]
Either-Sex on private and open public lands.

[align=center][align=center]Dec. 17, 2007-
Dec. 23, 2007[/align][/align]

Gun
(with dogs)

[align=center][align=center]Dec. 24, 2007-
Jan. 17, 2008[/align][/align]

Primitive Weapon
[align=center][align=center]Jan. 18, 2008-
Jan. 31, 2008[/align][/align]


Archery season seems pretty long, am I looking atthe right info?

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Mine opens Oct 1st, and I can use a bow for the entire season if I choose, as long as I follow the same regs the season requires (ex., wearing 500 inches minimum of hunter orange during primitive weapons and rifle season). Like I told BD, I also have the legal option or riding a little motor scooter in 8-lane Interstate traffic too. Right now I have archery season--the equivelent of having a safe lane for just the guys riding scooters.

It is a fairly long season--for now anyway. It's also very hot, everything is still green, biting flies/ticks/snakes are still very active, natural food sources are everywhere.......

The last two weeks of Jan used to be archery only. IMO prime hunting weather has barely startedat that time. We got our first snow of the year (probably only one) this past weekend. If I had my rathers, I'd give up October and take February for bow hunting.

I can appreciate your opinion, but I really don't think my opinionwould change. My main argument is a crossbow isn't a bow--that wouldn't change if I lived in VA, MS, or Australia. It's primitive, it's single-shot, it's low-impact, it's limited range, but it isn't a bow--so it doesn't belong in archery season. My main concern isn't what crossbows currently are, but what they have the potential of becoming. One thing is for sure--they will never be just a bow, and the technology sure ain't going to go backwards.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

I can understand wanting that late season as VA's statewidebow season is usually hot and miserable as well(startsOct.6-7 usually). I do get a late season(Dec. 1 -Jan.)in two countiesand we share most ofit with bp hunters as well so I can understand the "scooter" analogy but I still bowhunt a lot during that period. In the past couple of seasons VA has been adding some lates seasons for antlerless only that run into February and in some "Urban Archery Areas" into March.

The technology is definitely taking leaps and bounds for all bows (but compounds & xbows especially) so that could be a slippery slope, I guess only time will tell.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

New- To me its all 100% about the bow hunting heritage! It may not bother you but damn it bothers me! Its got nothing to do with more hunter#'s with me. Its never been a part of bow hunting in the USA, why does it have to be now? I respect your opinions New, Wyvern, I really do! I guess I'm more conservative then you guys and I don't ever see myself changing my ways on bow hunting the (new way).

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Time has already told us--look at a compound from 10-15 years ago, and look at one today. As far as that goes, look at a crossbow from 10-15 years ago compared to the one Matt talked about at the beginning of this thread. As far as the crossbows go, these advances have been made even with the tiny fraction of the market they carry.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

"To me its all 100% about the bow hunting heritage!"

PERFECT!!! IF that is the case...then crossbows are bowhunting...

this painting was done in 1412!!!! If that is not "bowhunting heritage" then I dont know what is...

Wyvern

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Damn!! You have dogs and crossbows in the same picture, this could get ugly. jk;)

Shultzy, I can understand and it's all good, I am only 32 so I grew up on compounds and the "newer" side of archery. I got into traditional gear to challenge myself and because it is so much more straight forward and a little bit more fun to me as far as just shooting. I don't have to worry about my release, which pin to use, is my sight level, don't creep, etc. etc . etc. But I also wasn't "brought up" on it so I could be missing something, here's one of my favorite pics from this season:

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Nice looking recurve there New! Just to let you know I'm not that old myself, I'm only 33 and I grew up with the technology coming into play as well. I did shoot compound for 10 years and really liked it. I didn't use a release (didn't believe in them), let off was less than 65% on my XI Impact. It was allot of fun but it was time for a switch and it was the best thing I did. My dad has been shooting Traditional for 30+ years (recurve first and he now uses a Longbow). Switching over for me was easier then most being I had a great mentor!

RE: Elitist attitude
 

They HAVE done a lot ...... they just hate crossbows and want to keep their season "theirs"


Dang ! C'mon man, play along here ! Lets hate compounds together ! :D

I don't hate them, they're the most proficient bow in the woods BY FAR. They've brought in many many hunters to archery season. They're been the stepping stone of many into hunting, and towards trad archery too.

Hey wait a minute ....... THATS a crossbow isn't it ?


EXCELLENT ! You lost nothing then, you can still hunt in that primitive season !

Actually I do see that as a potential problem/trend, but along the same lines as this thread, a modern muzzleloader, the inline, pelletizedc, sabot/bullet scoped things ......... they aren't primitive muzzleloader no more than a compound is a bow.


Good gawd, #1 you don't know he ever did that and #2 I'd bet there are MORE Accidents with people using compounds than crossbows. I think its been published that that is the case too. Probably the most compelling thing thouhg ...... he could get a handi-cap permit in MS and use a crossbow in your state this fall, gauranteed.

You going to quit hunting now ? Crossbows are ALREADY in your MS woods, you don't know the yahoo's behind them anymore than the guys behind the compounds - why do you hunt still ?


no, no, NO ! Crossbows are legal in almost every state and recognized as legal arhceyr tackle. Most states you have to have a permit to use them, BUT THEY ARE STILL LEGAL ARCHERY TACKLE ! Handcap people can only use BOWS in archery season, not gun, not muzzleloader, ONLY BOWS, and the rules and regs spell out exactly what bows are in every state.

There ARE a couple of states that don't allow crossbows in archery season. I can't remember which ones though


Well first tell me where compounds have gone ? Have they brought in SO many archery hunters that we've lost season ? No, thats not it. We've lost much of the archery seasons becuase of compounds ? Bag limits ? No ..... not that I'm aware of. So what HAS the compounds done ?

The tech race is ALREADY on LBR because of the states that allow crossbows. You don't think it has ? Look at the next Cabelas and Bass Pro. 1/3 crossbows now - why ?




Would you rahter NOT have the option of hunting in those other seasons ? Some states don't allow it


Your state of MS says it is :D




I completely understand that view and lean towards it heavily at times myself.

Crossbow and compound bowhunting isn't bowhunting, NOT like trad hunting is bowhunting. Its as differnt as night and day.

Wyvern Crossbow you waited to post that picture didn't you ? :D



NEW61375 Is that a Martin recurve ? I can't tell. What setup do you shoot ?

RE: Elitist attitude
 

I guess that would depend on your point of view. Say the scooter riders have the interstate to themselves from midnight to 3 am. Then the law changes, and there are no longer any restrictions--anyone can travel the interstate at any time. I can still ridea scooter there, but do you honestly think I didn't loose something?

Most of my hunting is done on private property, where usually I'm the only one around. If not, I know who else is there--legally anyway.

In most states they are allowed only with a special permit. They are not considered regular archery tackle--if they were, no special permit would be required.

Think some folks already said that......pretty sure I was one of them. Yeah, look at the big warehouse suppliers--even with the very limited market, they are investing heavily. Wonder what would happen if the market burst wide open?

Say every jughead that watches hunting shows and/or picks up a magazine sees the ads for thesenew wonder "bows" and decides that's the ticket to tagging a monster buck. No work required--these things don't just shoot themselves, they bring the deer right to you. Even if they don't get close, you can shoot 100 yds easily. 'Course you need all the latest and greatest gadgets to properly accessorize--yeah-buddy, hunting will be revolutionized, and be much better in the end when all this happens.[:@]


Chad

RE: Elitist attitude
 

This isn't a picture of someone in the USA is it Wyvern? I'm guessing Europe or some country out east.

Where does my post say a different country other then the USA? I don't care what the traditions or values on bow hunting are in another country, what matters to me is what the bow hunting heritage has been here in the USA. By the way them are some huge BH's on them bolts in that picture, they sure would leave a hole.;)

RE: Elitist attitude
 

"Wyvern Crossbow you waited to post that picture didn't you ?" :)

Yes....I did :D

Wyvern

RE: Elitist attitude
 

"I don't care what the traditions or values on bow hunting are in another country, what matters to me is what the bow hunting heritage has been here in the USA"

Where do you think it came from??? You think bowhunting is purely an "american invention"?? Dont you think that is a bit of a restriction on the scope of what bowhunting has been for thousands of years? Artistic license on the BH's....;)

Wyvern

RE: Elitist attitude
 

My fault Shultzy, I wasn't trying to imply you were some old relic or anything.:D

I just meant I had no background or upbringing in archery or bow hunting especially traditional. My dad, uncles, and granddad shotgun hunted. I started doing that with them and it wasn't very often(opening weekend, Thanksgiving, Christmas break). After a few seasons with minimal success or even sightings for that matter I started reading lots of hunting books and mags and became really interested in archery and the early season. I bought my first bow around 1990(Black Bear) at a pawn shop for $60 bucks and it was all over. I bowhunted for about 2 or 3 seasons with no luck but I was having the time of my life, seeing deer, spooking them, learning. My enthusiasm was contagious and my dad and brother both got bows and I even bought a Martin Prowler(50% let off:D) and managed to take my first archery doe with it the following season. I am very thankful for archery as it revived my dads interest in hunting and it's a great part ofour family/life to this day. Not to mentionthe experiences I had/have during bow season and being around more deer havemade me a much better hunter overall. I amexcited about my tradional hunts(although Ionly got out a couple of timeslast season) and I think next year will be my season to break the ice with myMartin Hunterpictured above. I guess whatI meant(before the brief bio) was I was kind of self taught in archery and didn't really have that mentor type influence as far asthebow hunting traditiongoes so it's possible I could be missing out (in a way) on some things.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

By no means bow hunting is an American invention, don't get me wrong. I was just reffering to the crossbows as they were allot bigger outside the USA. They've never been the thing here. Thats why in my previous post I said USA and not some other country's heritage. Get what I'm saying??:D

RE: Elitist attitude
 

No big deal, had to give you a hard time.;) Thats awesome New! A guy like myself sometimes just doesn't realize how good he had it when allot of other guys like yourself had to learn everything on your own without the help I had when starting up. Congratulations on where you are today with your bow hunting, proud of ya and happy for ya!!!;)

RE: Elitist attitude
 

"By no means bow hunting is an American invention, don't get me wrong. I was just reffering to the crossbows as they were allot bigger outside the USA. They've never been the thing here. Thats why in my previous post I said USA and not some other country's heritage. Get what I'm saying??:D "

Yep..I do now..
Actually, they went out of favor in Europe for quite a while except for the aristocracy ( some extreamly elaborate models in museums) but were used even in war up till Vietnam.. They have been around bowhunting for all that time till the present. Just not in enough numbers to make it worth the while being considered a "threat". Also it is only in the last few years that they have really been anyting more than a novelty to some extent. Crossbows from even the 1970's were woefully inadequate to be serious hunting weapons. The point has been made that when bow hunting seasons were established crossbows were "not around". They were, but like many things, it took time to re-establish itself. I still have not seen anything here that would sway me from not allowing them during bow season.

One point I would like to make. All of the outright lies that the PBS and other groups have spread is the only reason that there is any question of their legality as just another bow. If the idiotic claims of "100 yard kills" and "the choice of poachers" and "its not a bow" were not forced down ignorant legislators throats then this conversation would not even be happening. It is like any other political agenda: based on greed and selfishness and hidden behind the mask of "helping preserve bowhunting". Every fact gets ignored...every poll gets twisted...and it all comes back down to "its not a bow and I dont want it in MY season" and nothign that has been said here has done anything to disprove that....Its a shame really...how much more could bow hunting be today if all those political groups had put their money and time spent on anti crossbow legisaltion into bowhunting education and preservation?

wyvern

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Well we can agree to disagree then Wyvern, nothing said by anyone will change my opinion either. Some had some good points on both sides but as usual no one wins in the end of this touchy affair.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

"Well we can agree to disagree then Wyvern, nothing said by anyone will change my opinion either. Some had some good points on both sides but as usual no one wins in the end of this touchy affair. "

I'll agree with that...:)
Wyvern

RE: Elitist attitude
 

how bout yall just put on some LL bean clothes and run around in the brush lookin like Fred Bear.