RE: Elitist attitude
 

No matter how you look at it folks a crossbow is always at full draw and locked when a hunter is settled in and waiting. There's no ways around that argument for the people who are capable of pulling a compound/recurve/longbow back. Thats the huge difference to me between a crossbow and bow.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Several pages back this was stated (as it always is) as a superior advantage- not drawing so the game can see you.
I asked then how this "advantage is any different then the one gained from shooting from inside a ground blind or 25 ft up a tree. If one is not allowed should not both be banned?
I predicted few if any would respond.
I was right - again - no one ever soes.

Another fact is that not one season has been ruined by the inclusion of crossbows - most are longer now then before.
So the sky will fall arguement has NO BASIS in real real results - just another emotional scare tactic.

Steve

RE: Elitist attitude
 

I didn't say that crossbow hunters would take to many deer and hurt the population! Your logic of being 25' in a tree and or in a blind doesn't matter much to me. With me pulling 73lbs back with my recurve on a nice buck can be a challenge in its own weather he sees me pull my bow back or not, my nerves are going nuts!! Also pulling my 73lb bow back in below or near zero temps with lots of clothes on is a chore itself! Actually it would be tougher to pull my bow back being I'm 25' up in a tree and have a deer at 10 yards my angle is more severe making it much tougher to draw on then being only 10' up in a tree. Not even close Steve. Nerve's and weather play a huge part in getting your bow back weather in a tree or on the ground in a blind. This year the buck I shot was at 10 yards the first time when I pulled my recurve back to shoot him. He busted me 22' up in a tree. I was able to get the shot off luckily at 17 yards when he was on his way out at a very slow traught. I was lucky it worked out!

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Fact is guys, crossbows in archery season have NEVER been a negative impact to seasons or bag limits. ever

Fact is, if we're all striving for a big tent theory, to all stay banned toghether, we need to welcome crossbows with open arms, right ?

Fact is, if there are fewer hunters, we NEED crossbows as a means to get people INTO archery, don't we ?


Compounds will bristle at the above. They will try to say crossbows aren't archery ( ignoring the two thousand years or crossbows steeped in archery history)

Anti-crossbowers will tell you (and 98% of these guys shoot compounds BTW) that crossbows are TOO easy, easy being relative because they don't want to consider THEIR choice of easy to be looked at as too easy by trad shooters !



Where is the consistancy ? If compounders can look at crossbows and say " your'e not allowed in archery season, I don't like you because of A,B,C " why can't I do the same as a trad shooter ?

Why is that an elitist attitude, and its not the other way around ?



I had a long reply typed and something glitched, I auto-logged out and didn't retype all of it - sorry


the one quote was on shooting from a blind or way up - thats a WAY to hunt, not a difference in weapons

RE: Elitist attitude
 

I dont know...I think most of us(myself included) have done a pretty good job of showing that we are "elitists" ;) I am sure at some point there will have to be a line draw as to what is archery and what is not as technology continues to push archery further forward. Till they come up with something that puts the odds in the hunters favor rather than the deer, I think I will keep a few extra arrows on hand...just incase I miss...:)

Wyvern

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Fact is guys, crossbows in archery season have NEVER been a negative impact to seasons or bag limits. ever
PA has 270,000 bowhunters now.........and another 730,000 licensed DEER hunters who don't participate in archery season. I can't find a quiet spot now.........bring crossbows in and I will guarantee you that the number of people in archery season doubles in 1 season. You want to see it affect seasons, bag limits and the quality of the experience that is archery season , then bring them to PA.

Fact is, if we're all striving for a big tent theory, to all stay banned toghether, we need to welcome crossbows with open arms, right ?
NOPE

Fact is, if there are fewer hunters, we NEED crossbows as a means to get people INTO archery, don't we ?
NOPE


Compounds will bristle at the above. They will try to say crossbows aren't archery ( ignoring the two thousand years or crossbows steeped in archery history)
They aren't bows by MY definition

Anti-crossbowers will tell you (and 98% of these guys shoot compounds BTW) that crossbows are TOO easy, easy being relative because they don't want to consider THEIR choice of easy to be looked at as too easy by trad shooters !
YEP...and I'm not "Anti-Crossbow" just anti crossbow being considered archery equipment by MY definition of what I consider a bow.



Where is the consistancy ? If compounders can look at crossbows and say " your'e not allowed in archery season, I don't like you because of A,B,C " why can't I do the same as a trad shooter ?
You can, knock yourself out.

Why is that an elitist attitude, and its not the other way around ?
Because a compound is a bow, a crossbow is not.........you can jump up and down and site 2,000,000 yrs of evolution if you like. To ME a bow needs to be hand drawn and held for a finite amount of time by human power.

You can keep making the same case over and over and over.........you will never convince me, I know what I want, I know what I believe, and I know how I define things. If you don't like it or it doesn't fit YOUR definitions then tough crap.

I said it before, it's a futile argument, You will never convince me, I will never convince you.
So feel free to fight for crossbows in archery season if you choose, and I will feel free to fight to keep them outif I so choosebecause we both honestly believe different things.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

"You want to see it affect seasons, bag limits and the quality of the experience that is archery season , then bring them to PA"

I just got back from PA last weekend. My wife and I played "count the carcasses" on rt 84 on the way down and back. I sat in my hotel room and watched this huge herd of deer feed in the field across the street. Either you have some crappy hunters in PA, or you are in the wrong part of the state.

"bring crossbows in and I will guarantee you that the number of people in archery season doubles in 1 season. "

FINALLY!!!someone admits that the reason they dont want crossbows is because they want the woods all to themselves. By any chance do you own an auto body shop in PA???

Wyvern

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Quote:

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FINALLY!!!someone admits that the reason they dont want crossbows is because they want the woods all to themselves. By any chance do you own an auto body shop in PA???

Wyvern

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No no autobody shop. I barely know a piston from a pop-tart. ;):D

And no i don't want the woods "To myself" I can't get that NOW. LOL Bring them in and you'll finally see the opposite end of the "They will never affect seasons and bag limits"
This is a crazy state with too many people, and too many of them already trying to find their own slice of the pie. I will not even hunt in the general firearms season as it is now.
Call it selfish I don't care but I don't want to see what I know as an archery season turn into a shorter season fueled by another 2-500,000 people looking for a place to hunt with a weapon that I already don't consider a BOW. Sorry.
The 3 farms I hunt I only get to hunt now because I don't rifle hunt and the guys who DO rifle hunt it don't bow hunt.
Make crossbows legal in archery seasonand it's just another early "rifle" season because those guys who are unable to or don't want to put the time in to figure out how to work a compound or recurve now can simply sight their crossbow scopes in and flood the woods. These guys don't UNDERSTAND bows, but you can bet your bottom dollar they'll understand how to load a bolt, line up the crosshairs and squeeze a trigger.

You don't think that will happen? Then you don't know PA very well. ;)

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Why do you use a crossbow? Are you physically abled?

RE: Elitist attitude
 

You want a challenge??? Come up to my neck of the woods and try hunting. I am 20 minutes from Massachusetts and you think PA is screwed up? and 20 minutes from Maine who has a 1 deer limit and no hunting on Sundays. I had some idiot light off his 12 gauge in my back yard last season at 7 on a Sunday morning taking a pot shot at a moving deer that was between him and my house. He missed the deer of course (so guns are easier???) and thankfully the house as well.

I understand your comments, but I SELL these things I think I know more about it than some....what you are worried about does not happen. Yes, you get a few that transition, but most do not want to be "bow hunters" and actually get close to an animal and turn away shots that are not going to kill the deer. It is much easier to sit at the edge of a field and hit an animal in the neck at 200yrds then congratulate themselves on being "hunters".

Yes, I am physicaly able. I generaly hunt with a long bow. I have never been comfortable with a compound, but I enjoy crossbows. Also building my own tends to get me involved in them as well. Crossbows are just as much fun as any other form of archery. They do allow me to be more accurate than my longbow at longer ranges, but they are not replacing it. Why do you shoot a recurve instead of a long bow??? Why does the next guy shoot an aluminum riser recurve?? It is all archery, and it is fun to shoot..dont need much more reason than that...:)

Wyvern

RE: Elitist attitude
 

i think what some one wants to hunt with is there choice, hunting is hard period, it takes time, effort, and patience, even rifle hunting at 300 yards, takes work, it might be easier then bow hunting, but its is still hard. you have to know how your gun shoots, you have to have proper form to shoot a rifle at that distance, everyone has a personal preference, if you can hunt with a crossbow and your state allows it, awsome, i wouldnt mind having a crossbow, but our state makes you have a special disabled permit to hunt with them. I wouldnt mind hunting with a recurve or longbow, but i dont have the time to put into it, because i am busy with school and other things, so i shoot a compound, so what ever someone wants to hunt with is there choice, that is why there are hunderds of different, bows, guns, arrows, calibers, stands, its all what someone wants.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

You answered my question, thank you.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Here is a question for the no sayers to crossbow....(let say CB's are legal in all states)
If you hunted say 24 yrs with recurve,longbow or compound and you love it to no avail but you dislike crossbows and tell everyone you would never use one,ever,so you go to work one day have a accident and are hospitalized,you get out and will never be able to draw a bow again do to the injury.......You have too remember that bow hunting was your life....So now what do you do,your only 39yrs old........
Would you give up Bow hunting for the rest of your life or would you p/u a crossbow so you could still hunt with a bow for the nxt 40 yrs or so......
(this has nothing to do with guns because they are illegal in this ?thanks to the far leftgov).

Its a easy YES or NO question....no if and or buts just aYES or NO....

RE: Elitist attitude
 

I would ABSOLUTELY hunt with a crossbow, already stated that because even though it's NOT A BOW I'm also not blind enough to see it's the next best thing if you can't physically pull a bow back. ;)
I will never ever begrudge someone wanting to hunt the archery season with a crossbow due to a physical limitation.
It's the closest thing to archery hunting you'll get without using a bow so go nuts.:)

RE: Elitist attitude
 

I hate sticking my nose back into this cesspool, but I do have a comment...

Take the prod off a crossbow and what have you got? A BOW. A very short, very powerful bow, but it IS a bow. I think someone said it earlier; a crossbow is a bow-plus. Just like a compound is a bow-plus... plus cams, axles, cables...

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Arthur,
If you can pull it back and hold it long enough to shoot it...........;)

Here's the thing
I can hold my 61# recurve back for just about 25 seconds and still make an accurate shot.
I can Hold my compound back at absolute top end for about 90 seconds with my arm extended, probably a little longer if I wanted to find a way to rest my bow arm.
You can hold a crossbow back for an entire 12hr day in stand and never have to pull it back.

The percentage of time you can keep each at the ready to shoot shows pretty plainly which are BOWS and which are not. I know history yadda yadda yadda.........but if in your head (which it is in mine) you need to pull it back when you want to shoot it, HOLD it back in order to aim as the definition of a BOW then a crossbow will never be a bow in my eyes.
Its not evil,they're actually pretty darn cool, and I would absolutely hunt with one if I had to but to me it will never be a bow in the spirit of what I consider a bow to be and if I was using one I would never feel like I was BOWhunting.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

You can't, or at least aren't supposed to, leave any crossbow cocked and locked for more than several hours at a time. With steel prod crossbows like Wyvern's and mine, you have to relax the limbs every couple of hours or risk the limbs taking a set and losing power. So you won't find any knowledgeable crossbow hunters sitting with a cocked and loaded crossbow for a solid 12 hours.

I don't deny that there is a definite difference between having the crossbow pre-drawn and having to draw in the immediate presence of game.I define immediate presence as the animal is offering the shot and you draw, aim and shoot, right then. Even drawing and holding as little as 90 seconds with a compound while waiting for the perfect shot does not qualify as immediate presence, in my book though. Anyway, it's advantage to the crossbow there, and nobody will deny it.

But you also have to consider thatcrossbows have the disadvantage of being a helluva lot noisier, even louder than the loudest compound. The noise is more likely to make a deer jump the string than with a conventional bow. Advantage and disadvantage. It works out as a wash.

I wish we lived closer together so we could go out and fling some arrows, and I'd let you have some trigger time on my midieval crossbow if you wanted. Let you see if it's really as much of a game killing machine as you imagine.:)(Don't forget, you represent a company that manufactures a crossbow. A very high ticket crossbow at that. [:-])

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Oh I know.......and I'm sure I would see the difference in SPIRIT of your crossbow vs mine that will shoot 405fps and 155ft lbs of KE.
You let yours in the general archery season...........you also let in mine.

I can't tell you how many times I've drawn the bow at the wrong time, had to let down, redraw, never get drawn, can't draw because of a weird angle, have deer right under me before I even hear them on rainy or windy days, or just blow the shot because I'm shaking or can't see through the peep sight, or a miriad of other things that would be a moot point if I had a 175# scoped crossbow sitting across my lap.

I said it before I would have the 3 biggest deer I've ever seen in my life on my wall right now if I was using any decent modern crossbow VS a compound.

A compound is an advantage over traditional gear for sheer consistent precision no doubt about it, and it takes less time to become proficient ENOUGH........however the advantage of a modern crossbow VS the compound is FAR greater than the advantage of a compound vs trad gear. IN my eyes the advantage is about the same scale as how long you can hold them back.
A little, vs a little longer, vs a long long time.

2 bows you have to tune, fit, learn how to shoot, draw, hold and release.............regardless of materials or function.......vs a crossbow which you simply cock, load, and sight in. then set it across your lap and wait to do everything you would do with a rifle but at shorter distances.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

No! I'd figure out something to make it work. I'm very stubborn Ranger and I always stick to my word, nothing against you in how you hunt! If someone else prefers it when disabled, thats entirely up to that person and whatever makes them happy.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Consider, Matt... We're already letting in compounds with 99% let-off. How long could you hold back a 70 pound draw bow with 7/10ths of a pound of holding weight? In Texas, the drawlock device is legal! Isn't that a vertical crossbow, for all practical purposes? We've got bows that are nudging ever closer to 400 fps, and you know as well as I that they're going to keep pushing until they get there. Some suicidesetups are already capable of it.

Maybe I'm ready to toss out the baby with the bath water. I've been accused of it before. I spent a lot of years on the front lines of the anti-crossbow war, whileoften taking very long breaks from the compound. I'dconcentrate on shooting traditionalwhile notpaying much attention to what was going on with compounds. Then one day, duringone of mytraditional sabbaticals that had been going on for several years, someone said something on a forum that caused me to turn around and take a hard look at what was going on behind my back with compound technology.

I honestly felt betrayed because I saw that what I was fighting for had turned into exactly what I had been fighting so hard against. All the things I'd feared would happen if crossbows were allowed in archery seasons had already come to pass. There were suddenly a lot more of what I considered slob hunters in our ranks than ever before. We had guys describing themselves as meat hunters and trophy hunters.Wehad equipmentthat makes bowhunting so easy that BOWHUNTERSstarted doing QDM. That had always beforebeen the rifle hunters' domain! Bowhunting success rates for compound users had leapt up to around 35%, only acouple tenths of a percent different from what Ohio lists as the success rate for crossbow hunters. Traditional? It still is only in the 12-15% range. We had bowhunters that were getting upset if they didn't tag out every year. BOWHUNTERS consistently tagging out!

I don't know. Time will tell if I'm right or wrong. All I know is, except for traditional and primitive,bowhunting today is not the bowhunting I was fighting to preserve.I just don't see the vast majority of 'bowhunters' backing off from their infatuation with technology enough to reestablish what they always called "a clear and demonstrable difference" between compounds and crossbows. On the contrary, the compound clankeeps demanding more and more. "Make it faster, easier, more mechanicalso I canbe successful without so much effort."

The reason so many states lately have legalized crossbows is due almost entirely to the proliferation in compound technology, not to mentionP&Y's loss of credibility on the issue since the demise of the 65% let-off rule. You can look forward to more states going the same way in the near future. The geniehas escapedand there's no way to put that little turd back in the bottle.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Matt pretty much covered my perspective on page 18, except I can't say for sure that I'd hunt with a crossbow if I was no longer able to shoot a trad bow. As far as that goes, I can't say I'd hunt with a compound either. Art covered that very well, but I'm not going to get into that part right now.

Again, for my part I don't think crossbows or the people that use them are evil--they just aren't bows IMO. Sure they have ancient roots--so does gunpowder.

Chad

RE: Elitist attitude
 

How is weapon choice going to effect the number of deer taken. I believe the number of deer needed to be culled is calculated by the state and afforded through bag limits.





So, what is the goal of this post??????

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Quote:

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bring crossbows in and I will guarantee you that the number of people in archery season doubles in 1 season. You want to see it affect seasons, bag limits and the quality of the experience that is archery season , then bring them to PA.

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So you don't want more archers ? You think we're "good" with the numbers we have ? Or you think we need more hunters, you just don't want them to use any weapons you don't deem "bows" ? Also, you are guessing what would happen, again, look at Arkansas, Ohio, Canadian provinces ..... never have crossbows been a negative on seasons/ bag limits. ever


Wow. You don't know that we're losing hunters as a whole ? That the age of hunters is going up ? That new people hunting is going down ? That doesn't bother you ? Or it does, you just want them to shoot bows that you consider "bows" ? Who's the elitist here now ?

Quote:

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To ME a bow needs to be hand drawn and held for a finite amount of time by human power.

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Most all compounds nowdays do not fit that definition you know that, right ? They're mechanically drawn with triggers- not hand drawn.

Quote:

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you will never convince me, I know what I want, I know what I believe, and I know how I define things. If you don't like it or it doesn't fit YOUR definitions then tough crap.

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My point is, you have the same elitist attitude I have. We both think our wepaons are better, that we're doing it a harder way, we don't want others using "easier" weapons in "our" season.

W're elitists, we snub our noses at what others use. I snub my nose at compounds, you snub yours at crossbows.

Quote:

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These guys don't UNDERSTAND bows

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LOL I would say compounders don't know what bows really are and they don't know what bowhunting is either.

Admit Matt/PA that your bowhunting has been changed 180 degrees since shooting trad. Its unliked compound hunting in so many ways, its hard to even compare the two.

Isn't it ?












ranger56528 we'd all hunt with crossbows if that was our only choice, I truely believe that


no way, I don't believe that Matt / PA. Are you saying it or have you truly DONE IT ? LBR is known as a he-man in pulling bows and I bet he can't draw and hold for 25 seconds. Unless you are like a strong man or something ? If you can do that with a recurve, you can hold a compound back for 10 minutes.

Matt / PA

I don't think it is. Crossbows & compounds have the same accuracy levels, and as stated before compounds shoot higher 3D scores. You can shoot a crossbow in a minute, or a compound in 10 minutes - shooting trad gear takes a long long time to be accurate with. You know this, you've shot all of them.

You're trying to define what a bow is simply by how long you can hold it back, or the way its held back ? C'mon, a 0% letoff, 100% you hold the poundage back, can't hold for more than a few seconds recurve vs a very high % letoff you can hold back for minutes compound - thats radically different, and the compound uses a triggered release too ! A crossbow is a compound you can hold even longer, but compounds and crossbows share the holding back at high % factors



The above is 100% true.

In PA if you get 2 buck tags, kill both with archery, kill both with rifle, one with each ...... what does it matter as long as the G&F harvest goals are met ?




I'm becoming more and more the believer in one of two things.

#1 allow everything in archery season. We've got that right now in Arkansas. We've got good bag limits, 5 months of bow season and an expanding deer herd.

#2 restrict compounds and turn them BACK into a primitive weapon, maybe even so far as to ban them from general archery season. Why ? Because the spirit of what bowhunting is has been lost. There are arguments on that too and having shot compounds, crossbows and now trad bows, I better understand what seperates all 3 and its not about how long you can hold draw either.


Traditional bowhunters ARE DIFFERENT in the way they hunt, the way they approach the hunt, their ethics, comraderie etc. I believe this more and more.

What stops me from deciding on #1 or #2 is that DOES IT MATTER ? Thats a very complex question it really is, one I've not an answer for, but whats come out in this thread is something quite amazing to me.

Compound shooters are more high and mighty than trad shooters and they've got almost no reason to be. I had forgotten that. They're high and mighty, and they look down on crossbow shooters PLUS they look at traditional shooters as weird elitists too when they themselves have every bit the same attitude.

Ironically, they can't even see it

RE: Elitist attitude
 

I'm at a loss to figure out some of the logic in this thread. Since when is wanting to use the most efficient hunting technology that is legally allowed such a sin. That's kind of like some goose hunters insisting on using a single shot .410 and calling them into within 10 yards, but then raising hell because someone using a 10 gauge is unsportsmanlike and will kill more geese. I'm also at a loss to understand what part of crossBOW people can't understand [8D]

The ultimate name of the game is to kill a deer. If you are so jealous that some 65 year old disabled veteran is gonna get that big buck instead of you, then maybe you need to trade that Compound-BOW or Recurve-BOW off for a cross-BOW.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Schultzy,
You have to remember Ive hunted with compound and recurve(Iam getting back into) for 24yrs this being my 25 and will be my 2nd owning 2 CB's...
I like my CB's just as I do my other bows,I dont hunt with rifle even tho I own several and couldnt hunt last yr with trad or compound due to my sergery but I will buy a tag durring rifle and use my CB from a ground blind,being that is is legal now......
I will tell everyone that stalking and tree hunting with a CB is no fun in my book due to the fact they are heavy and you have to make sure there is enough room all around you so the limbs dont hit anything and they are loud,I can also re-arrow 5 times faster with trad or compound then with a CB.
Even in a ground blind you have to be carfull with the limbs,not unless you have a BIG blind.....
In my open book of thoughtI consider any weapon with limbs,string and propels a arrow to bea bow and have no problem with any bow a person uses as long as they know how to use it and dont take un-ethical shots......

RE: Elitist attitude
 

We got bow seasons for the simple reason that bows - crossbows either, for that matter - ARE NOT the most effective hunting technology. Rifles are the most effective hunting technology, so poo on your logic. ;)

RE: Elitist attitude
 

an excellent question - difficult to answer it seems

A G&F has to balance things, resources available vs maximum opportunity for the sportsman. Archery season gives maximum enjoyment with relatively low resource impact.

Thats what it USE to be. Success rates increase, animals killed certainly increase, every year, because more archers take the field, and the equipment makes guys more apt to kill animals.

And thats fine, up to a point, then saturation is going to happen. Maybe. IF that happens ...... then what ? Split archery ? How fair is that to the traditional archer ? What if its crossbows that make it so, and compounders lose season because of them ..... is that fair ?

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Arthur,

Look at my post again. It was in reference to what is legally allowed. If guns are not allowed during some archery seasons, they would not be the most effective hunting technology legally allowed in that cirrcumstance. Now do you get it[&:]

RE: Elitist attitude
 

"And thats fine, up to a point, then saturation is going to happen. Maybe. IF that happens ...... then what ? Split archery ? How fair is that to the traditional archer ? What if its crossbows that make it so, and compounders lose season because of them ..... is that fair ?"

Saturation of what??? the amount of bowhunters that get tags every year??? The numbers are dropping, everywhere, so that "saturation" is not happening and what we see is more deer, and less land to hunt on. The only thing I see happening around my area isthat I spend more time in the woods listening to somewoman yelling at herkids in the yards around my hunting area and less time listening to what should be peace and quiet. You want a challenge...try truurban hunting like I do...and like alot of us are nowhaving to
Wyvern

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Yeah, I dont see saturation as a problem either. I don't see that lumping all bows in the same season is a big issue. You certainly don't see people that hunt with firearms arguing for a special season for circa-1580 matchlock muskets because they are afraid to compete with people using centerline muzzle loaders.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Don't guess you saw the wink emoticon at the end of the post huh? You've had your chain jerked.Now do ya get it? :D

Well, that's another side of the same coin. Just like compounds did to bow seasons, the in-lineshave taken over a season that wasn't meant for them. The seasons wereworked for and wonby the buckskinning crowdfor primitive muzzleloaders with round balls and iron sights, that might stretch out to make a kill at 125 yards. Then along came those in-line, scoped muzzleloaders with sabots and jacketed bullets, capable of reaching out 300 yards and more.

I guarantee you, the buckskinners hate those things just as rabidly as hardcore traditionals hate compounds and crossbows. Problem is their numbers are so few in comparison to the high tech in-line shooters now that they have no political clout and nobodybothers to heartheir complaints when they do speak up.

Wouldn't it be something if we got primitive weapons seasons that could actually STAY primitive? Without a bunch of yayhoo wannabees coming along and trying it, finding out it takes more effort than they want to put into it and then, instead ofaccepting the limitations of the weapons and their lack of desire to use them,start whining for 'improved' weapons and accessories to make it easy enough to suit them?

Like I said, I AM an elitist. I'd love to see archery seasons and muzzleloader seasons revert to only allowing the weapons for which they were originally intended. But those battles were lost long ago. Just like compounds and in-lines have done, crossbows are going to win their way in and become the weapon of choice for the majority. It is inevitable.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Lanse couche couche/ Wyvern Crossbow

Matt / PA sees it as an inevtiability ...... I would hazard that MOST bowhunters (being compound shooters BTW) would agree that allowing crossbows equals more bowhunters in bowseason. Thats NOT desired is it ?

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Ya really zinged me there Art[8D]

As for the muzzle loaders, my family was in on the whole Hawken rifle craze of the 1970s. To the best of my knowledge, people tended to use those for hunting because those were the only muzzle loaders that were commonly commerically available. However, all of those folks now use centerlines and i've yet to hear a single complaint, but i would assume that such folks are out there. I think that you are always gonna have a small group of hardcore traditionalists when it comes to any hunting style. The big debate is always gonna be who gets to make the rules, that small group or the greater majority that just wants to get out and hunt without turning things into into an episode of Survivor Man.

And Duane, I am always happy to see more hunters getting out and hunting. But that's just me.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

That would be a dream come true, but it's not gonna' happen.

What brought up the "jealous" comments? I'm not worried about the "65 year old disabled vet" (like that's what the majority of crossbow shooters are--give me a break) or the 8 year old kid who just learned to place the crosshair and pull the trigger last week. I simply don't consider a crossbow to be a bow. It's ancient and primitive in it's roots, but so is gunpowder--so what?

A crossbow is a bow-plus. A .270 is a muzzleloader-plus. Why isn't anyone arguing that point so folks can use centerfire rifles during muzzleloader season? One makes as much sense as the other to me. What if you have a disability and aren't able to load a muzzleloader, but you can fire a centerfire rifle--let those folks (the 65 year old disabled vet crowd) use regular rifles during muzzleloader season? If not, why not? Easy--that's not what the season was established for--so why is that so hard to accept concerning crossbows?

Why bother with separate seasons period? Will any of you that are pro-crossbow in archery seasonargue that you don't want guns allowed during "your" season? If you will, why?

What makes a weapon the "most efficient"? Take this for example--who would you consider to be the more ethical hunter--a guy with a compound or crossbow taking an 80 yd shot through the woods, or the guy with a longbow who restricts himself to broadside/quartering away shots at 15 yds and in? The weapon doesn't dictate ethics.


That's not exactly the case. Money makes the decisions--manufacturers lobbying/paying politicians to allow this or that--that's what makes the world go 'round, doesn't matter if it's concerning a new mall down-town or changing hunting regs. Ask the hunters in AL who got no say a year or two ago--I believe it was Moultrie whobasically made the decision for everyone. If the "greater majority" is pro-crossbow in archery season, then there'd be more than.....2 (?) states allowing it.

If you love to shoot/hunt with a crossbow, what's the big deal about just waiting for primitive weapons or rifle season? That's what the rifle hunters do--either that, or they learn to use a weapon appropriate for the season.

Chad

RE: Elitist attitude
 

I've got news for you. Anything beyond a bent tree branch with deer sinew for string and fire hardened sharpened sticks for arrows is a "bow plus." Next thing you know some people with that philosophy will come out of the woodwork, then some of you compound bow and recurve people can debate them when they say that they dont want you fellas out in the woods at the same time as them.[&o]

And if the majority of people aren't interested in using a particular weapon, then they won't even if it is made legal. So, an economic/politicla argument can only go so far.

RE: Elitist attitude
 

I've got news for you as well:D I still have to pull my recurve/longbow back in the presence of an animal to shoot woods, aluminums, carbons, etc, unlike the crossbow. That animal still has to be with in 15 to 20 yards no matter if I'm using the three arrows I mentioned or If I was using an obsidian head. The distance doesn't change anything much (maybe a tad closer possibly with using the old rocks) thus the challenge is 100% still there though. I would appreciate my animal allot more though if I made my arrows out of a tree and sharpened my own rocks, no dought about it! Bottom line is I still have to pull my 73lb recurve back in the presence of an animal like a bow is suppose to be used!! Use your crossbow, I don't really care! I'm not a big crossbow fan but unfortunately times are changing and I have to except it for what it is, it doesn't mean I gotta like it though.;)

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Well, I'm not a big crossbow or recurve or compound bow fan, but that's because I simply dont want to hunt with any of them. But beyond that I don't give a darn what the guy in the next stand over is using and if he bags a B&C, then more power to him no matter what he is using.

And don't you mean your longbow "plus" since I would imagine it is an improvement over what was used at the battle of Agincourt [8D]

RE: Elitist attitude
 

My recurve is a take down that I made myself, not a longbow!! Its carved and glued together, get your facts right!!!!

RE: Elitist attitude
 

Then why did you refer to it as a longbow in your previous post[:-]

RE: Elitist attitude
 

A longbow/recurve/selfbow. I meant for all trad bows, not just my recurve.;)