How important is shaft straightness for hunting??
02-16-2005, 09:22 AM
#41
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Middletown PA United States
Posts: 3,625
RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
This has gotten very interesting. Without getting too long here I'd like to add a remark or two.
I, too, wonder why guys will spend upwards of $1000 on a bow and then scrimp on arrows, that being what does the actual delivery of a broadhead. All the bow is is a launchpad for the arrow.
And I agree that the average guy wouldn't be able to tell the difference between .006 and .001, but maybe, just maybe that's one of the things that keep him just average. I know that years ago I was just average. Then I got some better equipment and shot better. All this did was light a fire under my butt. One thing led to anothr and I was buying better equipment, because it is true that you can only expect so much performance from a piece of gear. So, it really gets to be a question of desire, too.
How good do you want to get? Sometimes getting something new and better instills more confidence so you just automatically turn the brain up a notch. And that leads to better shooting. And then you want to learn MORE. The big vicious circle.
Gibblet, didn't mean to ruffle your feathers too bad. If you are wrecking the arrows the way you explain then you haven't learned to shoot a different spots. I know I've wrecked many just the way you describe. Then figured out that it's much more economical to have several bullseyes to practice at. Good luck to you.
I, too, wonder why guys will spend upwards of $1000 on a bow and then scrimp on arrows, that being what does the actual delivery of a broadhead. All the bow is is a launchpad for the arrow.
And I agree that the average guy wouldn't be able to tell the difference between .006 and .001, but maybe, just maybe that's one of the things that keep him just average. I know that years ago I was just average. Then I got some better equipment and shot better. All this did was light a fire under my butt. One thing led to anothr and I was buying better equipment, because it is true that you can only expect so much performance from a piece of gear. So, it really gets to be a question of desire, too.
How good do you want to get? Sometimes getting something new and better instills more confidence so you just automatically turn the brain up a notch. And that leads to better shooting. And then you want to learn MORE. The big vicious circle.
Gibblet, didn't mean to ruffle your feathers too bad. If you are wrecking the arrows the way you explain then you haven't learned to shoot a different spots. I know I've wrecked many just the way you describe. Then figured out that it's much more economical to have several bullseyes to practice at. Good luck to you.
02-16-2005, 09:43 AM
#42
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location:
Posts: 312
RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
One point that Len made that no one else seems to be picking up on is the difficulty of tuning with arrows that are not straight.
Accuracy = Consistency
If you are starting with an advertised range of .006" +/- the range of inconsistency is going to be much worse than that of the more expensive arrows.
The cheaper arrows are not all .006" off of straight. You would think that will be a range from .001" to .006". Unfortunately, the tolerance is “plus or minus”. So the possible total run out is twice that and you may have an arrow with a total run out of .012". But there will also be arrows that that are straighter, maybe much straighter. You just don’t know.
You may be able to get your bow tuned for the best arrow in the batch, but it is not tuned for the worst arrows in the batch. Tuning doesn’t always improve accuracy but it does improve downrange kinetic energy. From the same bow one arrow will fly well and give you a pass-through. Another arrow will corkscrew and not give you the pass-through. I think we owe it to the animals we hunt to kill them as cleanly and quickly as possible. When your arrows have a possible inconsistency of .012” you are not going to be able to do this.
Someone said that there have been a lot of animals killed with arrows that are not straight. This is true. But how many were just wounded that would have been killed cleanly with better equipment?
Accuracy = Consistency
Like Len, I don't believe the advertising claims for straightness. However, I do think that most manufacturers put more care into the more expensive arrows.
We don't always get what we pay for, but when the best is less than double the cheapest, I'm willing to pay it for both target and hunting. I'll save much of the difference by doing my own cutting and fletching.
One other thing - the Wal-mart arrows are built in Korea and China. I'd rather buy American.
Len, have you ever had one of your customers send arrows back to the manufacturer because they didn't meet the advertised specs?
Allen
Accuracy = Consistency
If you are starting with an advertised range of .006" +/- the range of inconsistency is going to be much worse than that of the more expensive arrows.
The cheaper arrows are not all .006" off of straight. You would think that will be a range from .001" to .006". Unfortunately, the tolerance is “plus or minus”. So the possible total run out is twice that and you may have an arrow with a total run out of .012". But there will also be arrows that that are straighter, maybe much straighter. You just don’t know.
You may be able to get your bow tuned for the best arrow in the batch, but it is not tuned for the worst arrows in the batch. Tuning doesn’t always improve accuracy but it does improve downrange kinetic energy. From the same bow one arrow will fly well and give you a pass-through. Another arrow will corkscrew and not give you the pass-through. I think we owe it to the animals we hunt to kill them as cleanly and quickly as possible. When your arrows have a possible inconsistency of .012” you are not going to be able to do this.
Someone said that there have been a lot of animals killed with arrows that are not straight. This is true. But how many were just wounded that would have been killed cleanly with better equipment?
Accuracy = Consistency
Like Len, I don't believe the advertising claims for straightness. However, I do think that most manufacturers put more care into the more expensive arrows.
We don't always get what we pay for, but when the best is less than double the cheapest, I'm willing to pay it for both target and hunting. I'll save much of the difference by doing my own cutting and fletching.
One other thing - the Wal-mart arrows are built in Korea and China. I'd rather buy American.
Len, have you ever had one of your customers send arrows back to the manufacturer because they didn't meet the advertised specs?
Allen
02-16-2005, 10:51 AM
#43
Typical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location:
Posts: 833
RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
As I said befor I shoot .002 bemens. my friend jims wallmart arrows grouped just as good as my $90 dz arrows:{ Allso as good as many outhers:{ I donot like wallmart [union carpenter here]. I am much happyer going to a REAL bow store.TRY asking a wallmartion a question on spine stiffness 
You will never find one.
I have broaken 2 arrows on elk. They where broaken by the leg coming back and snaping them off.Allso have had this with deer. With jims JUNK wallmart arrows he kills a elk and many deer every year and I have never seen him break an arrow.If any thing they may get bent if they where not a full pass though.
I am for buying GOOD items to hunt with.BUT I think in this mans question was is the .006 good enough to hunt with. If you do not have the money to spend you can still shoot very good with way less tolarances than .001.I think a lot of people are more woried about pride than telling the man the truth.Yes they may be a very very little bit better will you beable to tell NO.
The man asking did not say if he was a newbee in bow hunting or if he had every thing and was just wondering if he could inprove.I got the tought he is new to bow hunting,and telling him he HAS to get the best to shoot good is not right.
I loose 2 dz arows a year dew to the fact I shoot everthing[yotes grouse rabbits and even a few deer].
I still buy the good arrows, NOT becouse they are better for the reasion I thought they shot the best from my bow.
You will never find one.I have broaken 2 arrows on elk. They where broaken by the leg coming back and snaping them off.Allso have had this with deer. With jims JUNK wallmart arrows he kills a elk and many deer every year and I have never seen him break an arrow.If any thing they may get bent if they where not a full pass though.
I am for buying GOOD items to hunt with.BUT I think in this mans question was is the .006 good enough to hunt with. If you do not have the money to spend you can still shoot very good with way less tolarances than .001.I think a lot of people are more woried about pride than telling the man the truth.Yes they may be a very very little bit better will you beable to tell NO.
The man asking did not say if he was a newbee in bow hunting or if he had every thing and was just wondering if he could inprove.I got the tought he is new to bow hunting,and telling him he HAS to get the best to shoot good is not right.
I loose 2 dz arows a year dew to the fact I shoot everthing[yotes grouse rabbits and even a few deer].
I still buy the good arrows, NOT becouse they are better for the reasion I thought they shot the best from my bow.
02-16-2005, 12:01 PM
#45
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location:
Posts: 178
RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
ORIGINAL: BGfisher
This has gotten very interesting. Without getting too long here I'd like to add a remark or two.
I, too, wonder why guys will spend upwards of $1000 on a bow and then scrimp on arrows, that being what does the actual delivery of a broadhead. All the bow is is a launchpad for the arrow.
And I agree that the average guy wouldn't be able to tell the difference between .006 and .001, but maybe, just maybe that's one of the things that keep him just average. I know that years ago I was just average. Then I got some better equipment and shot better. All this did was light a fire under my butt. One thing led to anothr and I was buying better equipment, because it is true that you can only expect so much performance from a piece of gear. So, it really gets to be a question of desire, too.
How good do you want to get? Sometimes getting something new and better instills more confidence so you just automatically turn the brain up a notch. And that leads to better shooting. And then you want to learn MORE. The big vicious circle.
Gibblet, didn't mean to ruffle your feathers too bad. If you are wrecking the arrows the way you explain then you haven't learned to shoot a different spots. I know I've wrecked many just the way you describe. Then figured out that it's much more economical to have several bullseyes to practice at. Good luck to you.
This has gotten very interesting. Without getting too long here I'd like to add a remark or two.
I, too, wonder why guys will spend upwards of $1000 on a bow and then scrimp on arrows, that being what does the actual delivery of a broadhead. All the bow is is a launchpad for the arrow.
And I agree that the average guy wouldn't be able to tell the difference between .006 and .001, but maybe, just maybe that's one of the things that keep him just average. I know that years ago I was just average. Then I got some better equipment and shot better. All this did was light a fire under my butt. One thing led to anothr and I was buying better equipment, because it is true that you can only expect so much performance from a piece of gear. So, it really gets to be a question of desire, too.
How good do you want to get? Sometimes getting something new and better instills more confidence so you just automatically turn the brain up a notch. And that leads to better shooting. And then you want to learn MORE. The big vicious circle.
Gibblet, didn't mean to ruffle your feathers too bad. If you are wrecking the arrows the way you explain then you haven't learned to shoot a different spots. I know I've wrecked many just the way you describe. Then figured out that it's much more economical to have several bullseyes to practice at. Good luck to you.
02-16-2005, 12:19 PM
#46
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Lingle WY USA
Posts: 527
RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
From what I gather from everyone is........if it shoots straight, shoot it......
.006 or .001 means nothing when it is stated from a manufacturer (as Len pointed out with his "bad" batch from the factory). Arrow construction is the most important thing. HOW the arrow is put together (epoxies, carbon quality, etc.) is at least as important as straightness.
I've shot Snuffers on .006 arrows and on .003 arrows and not had a bit of problems grouping out to 60-70 yards. The only real difference I've seen is that out of a dozen I might get 8 "good" (spine wise) arrows as compared to 6 in the .006 arrows. I've never lost an elk or deer due to arrow failure (how would you REALLY ever know?)....
I would venture a guess that a dozen spine "grouped" .006 arrrows would out-shoot "stock" .002 arrows. Anyone agree?
.006 or .001 means nothing when it is stated from a manufacturer (as Len pointed out with his "bad" batch from the factory). Arrow construction is the most important thing. HOW the arrow is put together (epoxies, carbon quality, etc.) is at least as important as straightness.
I've shot Snuffers on .006 arrows and on .003 arrows and not had a bit of problems grouping out to 60-70 yards. The only real difference I've seen is that out of a dozen I might get 8 "good" (spine wise) arrows as compared to 6 in the .006 arrows. I've never lost an elk or deer due to arrow failure (how would you REALLY ever know?)....
I would venture a guess that a dozen spine "grouped" .006 arrrows would out-shoot "stock" .002 arrows. Anyone agree?
02-16-2005, 01:09 PM
#47
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Walker LA USA
Posts: 443
RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
One thing I noticed the guy shooting walmart arrows was shooting aluminum(gamegetters).IMO aluminum is much closer in spine and straightness tolerances because of the way it is manufactured.Carbon arrows are wrapped around, I'm assuming, around some sort of mandrel.You have glue to hold the layers together.This process leaves much in the room for error.ACC's have a inner aluminum core.They also are a good compromise between light weight and good quality if you don't want to shoot aluminum.
My ole granpappy said you get what you pay for.I've found this mostly to be true.
Of course I know guys that use rivercane to make arrows,talk about a challenge!
CB
My ole granpappy said you get what you pay for.I've found this mostly to be true.
Of course I know guys that use rivercane to make arrows,talk about a challenge!
CB
02-16-2005, 02:45 PM
#48
Typical Buck
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location:
Posts: 833
RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
CG
I think you got what we all have been missing.Every one of us shootr all our arrows and deside what ones shoot best. I know I end up only getting 7 to 9 good arrows out of 1 dz. If you do this with all typs of arrows I beleave you have called out the bad ones.So in trun all most people will shoot is the best.The bad arrows I have are shoot at grouse and yotes NOT elk or deer.
I think you got what we all have been missing.Every one of us shootr all our arrows and deside what ones shoot best. I know I end up only getting 7 to 9 good arrows out of 1 dz. If you do this with all typs of arrows I beleave you have called out the bad ones.So in trun all most people will shoot is the best.The bad arrows I have are shoot at grouse and yotes NOT elk or deer.
02-16-2005, 02:55 PM
#49
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 3,903
RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
I'm with Straightarrow ! You guys can talk all you want ......while your shooting field points !
But you put some fixed blades on and then see what happens !!!!
But you put some fixed blades on and then see what happens !!!!
This thread is about hunting , this is a hunting board , the common denominator seems to be...hunting situations.When I talk about accuracy between the two arrows for hunting situations I'm darn well talking about shooting broadheads!
Another thing I'll add , when tuning my setups I usually find a few arrows out of a dozen that wont impact the same as the rest of the arrows but I have no problem filling my quiver with true flying arrows of the .006 quality. I will also add that I've had just as many bad flyers with the more expensive .002 arrows when weeding thru a new dozen.
Shoot whatever makes you confident!
02-16-2005, 03:18 PM
#50
Site Bouncer
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Illinois
Posts: 4,099
RE: How important is shaft straighness for hunting??
I don't know how else to put this. The question was regarding .001 vs .006 for hunting purposes.
Please don't try to tell me that all .006 arrows are junk or crap. All of the big name arrow manufactures make .004-.006 arrows and some of you are trying to convince me they are crap? They would not be in business if that were the case.
For some reason some of you can't or won't believe that a good arrow company can make a good WELL built arrow at .006 straighness and pass it on the the consumer for less than the .001 arrows. Those arrows still carry the name Easton or Beman or Carbon Express on them and they reflect on the company.
Some of you will have us believe that those arrows are junk and won't fly straight, penetrate or stay intact in hunting situations. The fact is they perform just as they are advertised and if they didn't then those arrows wouldn't sell and the companies would suffer.
The only difference is a slight and I mean slight difference in the tolerances between the two arrows. I will say it again, there is NO WAY an average hunter/archer will ever be able to tell the difference between the two. And that goes for most of the people on this board that are saying they are junk.
Please don't try to tell me that all .006 arrows are junk or crap. All of the big name arrow manufactures make .004-.006 arrows and some of you are trying to convince me they are crap? They would not be in business if that were the case.
For some reason some of you can't or won't believe that a good arrow company can make a good WELL built arrow at .006 straighness and pass it on the the consumer for less than the .001 arrows. Those arrows still carry the name Easton or Beman or Carbon Express on them and they reflect on the company.
Some of you will have us believe that those arrows are junk and won't fly straight, penetrate or stay intact in hunting situations. The fact is they perform just as they are advertised and if they didn't then those arrows wouldn't sell and the companies would suffer.
The only difference is a slight and I mean slight difference in the tolerances between the two arrows. I will say it again, there is NO WAY an average hunter/archer will ever be able to tell the difference between the two. And that goes for most of the people on this board that are saying they are junk.