I know that's what they're claiming, but where's the proof?

We've had all kinds of arguments about whether KE or momentum is the better determinant for predicting penetration, but their arrows fall short on both counts.

Just look at the comparison chart they have on their website. You notice they don't list KE for any of those arrows, just speed. But someone that takes the time to break out the ol' calculator can easily see what's going on.

Take their fastest arrow, 250 grains @ 342 fps. That calcs out to 65 ft lbs. Look at the other brands: 378 gns @ 281 fps = 66 ft lbs; 413 gns @ 270 fps = 67 ft lbs; 473 gns @ 256 fps = 69 ft lbs. If you figure momentum, their 250 gn arrow has 20% less mo than the 378 gn arrow; 24% less than the 413; 30% less than the 473.

There is no way I buy that their arrows will give better penetration on game. The laws of physics are not on their side.

Not to mention that their retained energy downrange has got to be atrocious.

You are joking right? Take any Internal Component Carbon with the correct spine for the individual's setup and I can almost guarantee you that it is going to be under the AMO recommended minimum arrow weight for that person's particular setup.

With aluminums it is much more difficult to accomplish because they are generally heavier per inch. However, if FOC is ignored then a 100 grain tip on a thin walled/wide diameter aluminum can be below AMO recommended specs. When I get home I will grab a few arrows and weigh them to verify this.

ijimmy, confusing AMO/IBO?

Frank, while you got the scale out, slap one of them NVs on there, would ya?

Unless they're all boxed up and ready to go

Frank, I just wandered around t the AMO chart and you definitely have a point. Most people definitely ARE shooting well under the AMO chart.

Looking at my stuff, I'm okay. At least NOW I am. For my round wheel ProTec @ 60 pounds and 33" draw, it shows a minimum arrow weight of 352 grains. 5.87 grains per pound. All my ICS type carbons weigh around 450 grains with feather fletch and 125 gn tips, so I never even got close to minimun with this bow.

For a 70 pound, hard cam bow at 33", it shows a minimum of 586 grains or 8.37 grains per pound which would have me shooting at least 2419's. When I was shooting those carbons on my hard cam 70 pounders, I was 136 grains UNDER AMO minimum! No wonder those bows rattled and clanked so bad when I got rid of them.

Now, someone with a more normal draw length, say 30" and shooting a 70 pound hard cam bow, the recommended minimum is 487 grains, a fraction of a hair under 7 grains per pound.

So most are already well under the AMO minimum, but is that really a reason to use even lighter arrows?

And I guess that forces me to retract my earlier comment and change it to anyone not shooting a minimum of IBO legal equipment needs to stay away from our club.

Why do you think these bows are so expensive? To cover the warranty! The limbs of today are about the same as 10 years ago. Risers, string materials and cams are different for sure.

One more point......limbsavers, high tech stabilizers, hush kits!!! There is as much if not more vibration on the newer bows. Vibration and noise is muffled, but the facts are the same amount of stress is still taking place.

My bad , I supose I did get the 2 mixed . I know its hard for me to get an arrow [that I would want to shoot ] any where near 5 grains per lb of pull weight , even with a carbon and light tip , ie 75 grains . I wont consider ,gold tips or , hca arrows .

My finished 27" ACC 3/49s with a 75 grain tip weigh right at 350 grains, and shoot wonderfully at 29" DL and 70# DW.

I'm shooting them with a 100 grain tip at 64#s currently, still flying beautifully...

Rangeball, if they shoot all that wonderfully for you, why is it you're wanting to know how to tame the recoil on your Hornet of yours? Just so you'll know, the recommended minimum for your setup is 454 grains. Go to that arrow weight and I bet you'd see a huge difference in recoil. Ah.. but that speed thing raises it's ugly head, don't it.[&:]

Anybody beginning to see why I've been saying, for the past 5 years at least, that the industry is totally screwed up?

Art, I have a 500 grain terminator at my disposal, and it really doesn't impact recoil to any discernable level. I was suprised, I really thought it would...

Now if that extra 4 ounces was mounted on the bow...

If another 150 gns of arrow weight didn't do anything to settle the bow down, I'd suggest an exorcist. [8D]