Just checked www.ibo.net

Arthur,

Really? My understanding is that the AMO minimums vary greatly depending on draw length, draw weight, point weight, cam style, etc...? I will give your club credit if all of the members are aware enough of these issues to choose an arrow that fits the required specs. But, with that statement you made that would rule out a vast amount of arrows currently being marketed...and not just the dangerous arrows being marketed by HCA, etc...

I know I am going to get a nice healty response for this comment but..... Don't you think the AMO minimum arrow weight recommendations are a little outdated considering the new materials/designs used in limbs, strings, etc..? I could be totally wrong but I do not think they have updated that chart for quite some time. If memory serves me correctly going by the chart recommendation I should be shooting an arrow somewhere around 500 or so grains for my setup. I cannot remember the last time I regularly used an arrow of that weight and yet have never had a problem with anything other than normal wear and tear on my bows.

Your thoughts?

Back the to the original post....Does anyone here actually own and regularly shoot the new HCA bows with those ultralight carbons?

I think a few do..................but your gonna have to wait a bit for their replys..............

Its kinda tough to type with one hand[][]

Yes indeed, sometimes going below 5 grains per pound for short draw/low weight/low efficiency bows. Sometimes going over 7 grains per pound for a long draw on a heavy, hard cam bow.

Are our members aware of the specs? The AMO chart is posted on the bulletin board, so they should be. They are definitely aware of the IBO and ASA rules. Plus, most of our members have a good dose of common sense. I don't think we'd have a problem among our membership. Frankly, with the encroachment of development around our range, the ASA rules are looking better than IBO rules. Limiting arrow speeds might help eliminate the chances of a stray arrow leaving club property. But I guarantee anyone comes through the gate shooting an HCA bow or Carbon Revolution arrows will be checked.

Do I think the chart is out of date? No. It has not been updated since the day they put it out, but why should they update? Designs have changed, but they're still using the same materials in bows today that we had 15 years ago when the mfrs wouldn't warranty less than 6 grains per pound.

Since people bitched that the mfrs would advertise IBO speeds but wouldn't warranty their bows at 5 grains per pound, the mfrs had to beef the bows up a bit in order to withstand 5 grains per pound. But the materials they're using haven't changed dramatically, if at all. With, of course, the exception of carbon risers and I'm not all that convinced HCA's on solid footing with their claims about arrow weights.

And to the idea that --- "if the manufacturers warrant 5 grains per pound, then there has to be a safety factor figured in, so the bow must be able to shoot X grains per pound and not blow up." That may be so, but that means you KNOW you're into no-man's land and into the safety bumper. Problem is, there is no line to let you know when you've gone too damn far. Like a heroin junky wanting to get as high as he can... He did a little more and lived. A little more and lived. Then, a little more wound up being a little too much and he's on a slab at the morgue.

Where will YOUR bow blow up? 2.7 grains per pound or 4.1 grains per pound? YOU DON'T KNOW. Just like the junky that didn't know when to quit.

Besides, I do not understand WHY we need to go lighter than 5 grains per pound. Extremely fast arrow, yes. But, as pointed out, illegal to shoot in sanctioned tournaments. As a hunting arrow?? They've got to be kidding.[>:]

Arthur,

Thank you for the response. As good as always.

Now I know you have an engineering/technical background so I will not presume to know more about this however, I have always operated with the understanding that today's designs are more durable than something from 10-15 years ago. Now, if that does not come from the materials used then maybe it comes from the way that they are being used. Risers and limbs look and exhibit different characteristics than they did back in the late '80s and early '90s.

Lets look at the AMO chart. As you mentioned it has not changed since the day that they produced it. In this instance we are using it to reinforce the perspective that today's arrows are too light based on those standards. However, could the opposite not also be said? Aren't the cams on today's bows helping to generate more energy dispersal to the arrow? If that is true then maybe the AMO chart recommendations are not safe enough either since the bows they were basing it on were not capable of producing the energy output that we see today.

Personally, I do not believe that to be the case anymore than thinking that the AMO recommendations are the absolute minimum arrow weight that a person can safely shoot out of their bow. If that were the case then I would have seen some form of detrimental effects on any of my bows. In other words, my personal experience just begs to differ.

To give a comparative example, how many folks on these forums do you think shoot at or above the AMO recommended minimum arrow weight for their bows? I would be willing to wager that a significant majority do not. Further, if a majority do not shoot that minimum weight then would it not stand to reason that we should be seeing alot more posts about excessive wear and tear on bows and or personal injury?

I am, by no means, promoting the use of ultralight arrows for any setup. Using too light of an arrow can and does lead to personal injury and damage to equipment. However, I think the question really is "what is an ultralight arrow?". I do think that the AMO's chart is a better tool to be used to determine this in comparison to just a blanket number like "6 grains per pound, etc..." since it does take into account many of the variables for any given setup. However, I think the chart needs to be "adjusted" to better represent current bow designs and the experiences expressed by many.

It sort of reminds me of the Pope and Young "Percentage of letoff rule". Can I get a little asterisk placed on that AMO chart anywhere?

LOL! I'd almost made a nasty wisecrack about that P&Y letoff thing and thought better of it before I posted. [8D]

I don't doubt you've not seen any ill effects from shooting very light arrows. For a while there, you were changing bows more often than I changed underwear. [:-] (I have noticed your new bow acquisitions have slowed down a bit since you became a family man) Not all bows will have a sudden, violent failure within a few shots with exceedingly light arrows. The damage does occur though and it is cumulative. Sooner or later, the bow will fail. The lighter the arrow, the sooner the failure.

Maybe the reason we don't see many complaints about excessive wear and tear is because we see so many posts about folks buying the latest, greatest bow every year. Some of these guys buy several new bows every year!

I intend to shoot my ProTec until I hang up archery, so I have not shot an arrow less than 7.5 grains per pound with it. Most of my shooting is at 9 grains per pound. If it's as good a bow as my old Hoyt's, it should still be shooting great for the next 10 years at least with that arrow weight. It will probably outlast me.

As I said above, mfrs had to beef up their designs in order to keep from going broke while warrantying bows for 5 grains per pound, which allows the AMO chart to remain fairly viable even though the energy levels have taken a quantum leap. And they certainly couldn't stand a personal injury liability lawsuit so, yes, there is a safety margin figured in there.

Frankly, I think it's a fool's errand to go under that safety margin. If it scares the mfrs, where all they have to lose is money, it should scare the pants off the archer. Archers have a lot more riding on that safety margin. Maybe they'll be lucky and won't get hurt, but they could just as easily be blinded or crippled for life. I've heard of at least one death that was attributed to a bow blowing up, where the shooter's skull was smashed by half of a riser.

I doubt knowing it was a freak accident was much comfort for that shooter's family.

Point taken.

True. I have only owned four so far this year. Though there have been a few that I kept for a year or two with no ill effects. I could understand if the shooter was shooting excessively light arrows for their setup over an extended period of time (read 2 or 3 years). That is just an invitation to failure.

I have to be more "discreet" with my bow purchasing now that I am married. The wife knows all the links to these forums...

To be somewhat of a smart...., I think you just found a good reason for folks to buy new bows each year. Safety! [&:]

I knew I would getcha with that one.

That's also why most used compounds are about as valuable as used beer when it comes to resale value. Besides there being a ton of them out there, who knows how much damage they've sustained from being shot with arrows that were too light.

Dang, Frank. I nearly let you slip one past me. You've only owned 4 different bows THIS YEAR? We're not quite even finished up with the 3rd month yet! You're still an overachiever, aintcha? [8D]

I agree but thats what they are claiming , They claim "better penitration"

About 99% , Its hard to get an arrow below that in weight , with any kind of tip , that will spine correctly .