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Spine Test results from tonite

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Spine Test results from tonite

Old 04-13-2009, 05:35 PM
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Default Spine Test results from tonite

I had a little "fun" tonite spining some arrows at the shop.

For reference purposes- Carbon Express laser match "spine selected" shafts (Maximas, CXL, etc) are matched +/- .002 in spine (total variance of .004) per doz. This is very similar to what you will see out of a dozen A/C/Cs as well. Carbon Tech arrows are guaranteed to be +/- .005 (total .010) per dozen. Carbon Tech's variance is pretty much my own barometer as well. Things get wonky above that- Flyers, groups spreading out left and right, etc.

1st up was the 3 full length bare shaft Victory Vforce V1 350 shafts I bought a few weeks ago. Unfortunately the 3 shafts I fletched were just a shade too short to use on the RAM spine Tester.

Variance around the shaft (SAS) on the Victorys was REALLY good. Barely made the needle move. Commendable. Unfortunately spine variance of the 3 shafts was not. The total variance between the 3 was .018- totally unacceptable in my book. The two closest shafts were .009-which is right at the max of my own "threshold".

Since I only had three of the V1s, I decided to grab a dozen Victory Vforce V3s (size 400) that shop had in stock. Again, SAS was very good. Again, shaft to shaft variance was bad- After 7 arrows, I was already seeing a variance of .021 from lowest to highest- At this point I gave up and shelved them.

Finally, since I had cut my own too short to spine, I grabbed a dozen of ICS Hunter Elite 400s. I spined through the entire dozen. Spine around shaft was not quite as good as the Victory arrows, but it was not bad either- needle moved just a little for each shaft. Out of the 12 shafts only two showed a variance out of my "standards". One was .011 out, the other .012. The other 10 shafts were all within a .006-.007 variation. Very good.















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Old 04-13-2009, 07:02 PM
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Default RE: Spine Test results from tonite

Good report Jeff. Nice seeing some actual specs on a few arrows rather than somebody's opinion. Seems to me that those Victory shafts might not be the "cat's meow" that some think they are. Certainly no better than the Gold Tip Pro's I'm presently shooting.

I took notice your reference to ACC's when comparing shafts. Do you like to use them as a benchmark? I have an old ACC Tach Manual that states that ACC's vary no more than .005 for spine. Of course that was close to 15 years ago. Who knows how much those standards have been "relaxed" these days. Still,

I think ACC's are about as consistent as a person can buy within the realm of less than $200/doz. I'm a little amazed at what carbon arrows are selling for these days. I see guys say they can't afford something as good as an ACC, but will think nothing of dropping $10 to $15 less per dozen for an AC arrow that hasn't near the quality specs.

Yeah, I know, so why am I shooting GT's when I have ACC's? I question this myself sometimes. Guess it's the speed thing. The ACC's are 30 grains heavier. But they spine better and group better. Shame on me!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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Old 04-14-2009, 04:06 AM
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Default RE: Spine Test results from tonite

Thanks Barry-

Yes, Victory arrows have sligth spec changes but the construction, finish, tolerances are dead on Goldtip. They really are the same arrow. After all they are produced on the same machines in the same factory as Goldtip was using (in Mexico).

Yes, A/C/Cs are the benchmark IMO. I have come to prefer all-carbon *if I can find really good ones*, but if push came to shove and I had to choose 1 type of arrow to shoot for the rest of my life, no doubt, no hesitation it would be A/C/Cs.

The Maxima Selects and Carbon Tech XPs are very comparable to A/C/Cs. I'm really impressed with how CX has improved so dramatically in the last few years.
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Old 04-14-2009, 05:00 AM
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Default RE: Spine Test results from tonite

Up next= Trophy Ridge?If the free arrows that TR sends shoot well, I think there might be a dozen at my house sooner than later.Thanks for the testing Jeff.


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Old 04-14-2009, 05:37 AM
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Default RE: Spine Test results from tonite

I tried to get onto the TR website when I saw the link over at the EAF last night. The offer had alreeady been shut down by the time I got there. [:@]

My dealer/friend has said the TR shafts look to be quite good, but will suffer the same problem CX does at his shop- there is a very large pro- Made in the USA customer segment in this area, and they tend to not buy stuff that has Made In China/Made in Korea plastered on it if they can help it. So he's decided not to bother unless demand becomes signficant.
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Old 04-16-2009, 06:12 AM
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Default RE: Spine Test results from tonite

The G.M. over @ Victory was none too happy with my spine-test results (I posted them over at EAF as there were several folks there waiting for them)

Here si his reply

I have also tested over 20 dozen of our competitors arrows and found the in straightness and weight match per dozen Victory can’t be beat! The spine deviation between arrows to arrows was very tight on the CT and closely followed by Victory. But for the cost of other brands compared to Victory you will not find a better arrow. I also shot a dozen arrows that had a spine deviation of over +/-.025” and found very little impact difference 1/8”. I also shot a dozen arrows that had a weight difference of +/- 5 grains and found only a slight difference of impact of the arrow. ¼” tops. These tests where performed out of a Hooter Shooter type shooting machine with an Elite GT-500. I know you might think I am bias since I work for Victory but let me assure you Victory only wants to build the best arrow on the market that is why we test other brands. I have also seen test that people have done on other product that we make and they don’t know that and they tell us that the other brand is betterJ This gets me every time. How can something like the Lumen-Arrow from Lumen-Nok test better when we make them?? We currently make over 10 different Private Labels of arrows; so be very carefull before you bash


And my response-
Not bashing Bart- just stating results. I've been doing this for a long time. I don't care who makes what or "names". Just tolerances.


P.S. I see alot of "shot out of a machine" remarks. Remove the human element- as a way to prove whatever results a manufacturer wants.

When I start rolling up a Hooter shooter to the line, or in the treestand to make my shots then I will care about "machine shot". Until that time, I will take tight spine tolerance because THAT is what makes an arrow FORGIVING TO HUMAN ERROR/FORM. We are not machines.

For that matter I have personally witnessed Jim Despart shoot better with his bow than his Hooter Shooter did. Why? his bow/arrows are tuned to his human error/form.
The interesting thing he has not responded to any more inquiries/comments/questions that others have for him. (in particular the "10 Private labels" they build arrows for -Goldtip & Vapor are the obvious, I suspect they build some of the really off brands like Forge,etc)


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Old 04-16-2009, 06:40 AM
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Default RE: Spine Test results from tonite

You gave an excellent reply to him. Excellent. I also notice that he (inadvertenly?) rates my arrow choice, Carbon Tech, very well .
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Old 04-16-2009, 06:56 AM
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Default RE: Spine Test results from tonite

The whole "shot out of a machine" thing really bugs me. I some ways it is a good way to take the human error out of the equation- so one can determine if there is fault with equipment or a shooter- a good diganostic tool, so to speak. It is also a good way to tune a dozen arrows so that the nocks are indexed. However when it comes to actual shooting results (i.e. accuracy), taking "the human factor" out of the equation by utilizing a machine is pointless (again until we have the machine doing the shooting for us).

Thats why I like to see people learn to fine tune their own bows-YOU need to shoot through paper, or group tune, or walk-back tune or whatever, All of us are individuals and we all differ greatly. Set up everything with a laser if you like, get everything perfectly centered and whatnot, and then fine-tune to your human flaws- don't let the guy at the shop paper it or whatever and then be done with it.

OK, I'm getting off on a tangent.[:'(]


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Old 04-16-2009, 10:37 AM
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Default RE: Spine Test results from tonite

Jeff:

Good job on the tests. I have gotten similar responses on different message boards when posting my spine results. Always interesting to hear from a top level pro shooter who claims he does not get special arrows, just gets a "normal" dozen just like everyone else. Somehow, especially when it is an arrow that has a bad rep for spine consistency, I am hard pressed to actually believe it. Then you also get the "I can robinhood any time I want at 50 yards with these cheap arrows, must be your lack of shooting skills" guys.

The thing that concerns me most about your findings, as I said in a previous post about Victorys, is how far they seem to have fallen since coming out only last year. The dozen HV-V1 350s I bought last year actually spine tested closer than the Carbon Techs. The closest to ACCs of any all carbon arrow I've tested. If they have gotten that bad that fast, It makes me wonder what is going on with that company, and its arrow making processes. I think the industry can use a reasonably priced all carbon arrow that is pretty straight, and is consistent in weight and spine. I guess it just won't be that one.[&:]
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Old 04-16-2009, 12:29 PM
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Default RE: Spine Test results from tonite

It's entirely possible that due to a different construction process that the HV series shafts are tighter? I don't know. I've not tested any Jeff. All I can say is that the V-Force arrows I tested are not very consistent in spine through a dozen (or even 3)- very similar to a typical doz. Goldtips- which makes sense obviously.

I personally would buy the Goldtips over the Victory branded arrows as the finish is nicer, and the component fit is better, IME.







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