the SMALL LONG LEGGED AMERICAN LAB in my opinion is the ALL AROUND DOG only because they can go into cold waters in winter.
if OTHERS could do that,it would be hard to pick the ALL AROUND DOG.
the GSP is as close to lab you could get but they get very cold in cold water in winter.they will shiver and shake.
but throw out the cold water thing and many dogs are ALL AROUND DOG.

SETTERS/GSP/BRITTANYS and are better bird dog on grouse than the LAB BUT CANT TAKE COLD WATER OR HEAVY SNOWS AND COLD .

Oh, now I understand Mustad.
Us beer drinking pickup driven pointing lab guys couldn’t hardly know what a real point looks like. Point being made in guest but maybe the lab people are somewhat different in what they are looking for.

As far as Pointing lab people getting over ourselves, well I might suggest a few of the fine people of the pointing breeds get over the pointing lab people. I don’t think I have read many articles or posts on forums where the PL people are bashing the “pointing breeds”. As in this one it always starts with a conventional pointing breed owner getting upset because “labs don’t point”.

If conventional pointing dogs were judged by Retriever Field trial judges on natural retrieve, I dare say as you did a small percentage would even be considered able to make a passing retrieve and may not be considered as able to retrieve at all. None the less many are considered versatile. Yes there are a few that will naturally aggressively retrieve to heal and hold until given the command to drop, very few. Labs style of point is not readily enhanced, as a matter of fact trying to change or enhance a pl’s style is nearly always detrimental. I stopped that nonsense nearly a dozen years ago. If you are looking for a pl to pose the way english pointers do for pics you will be waiting a long long time. PL’s just arent wired that way.

You are right a small percentage of labs are actually pointing labs. I at times think there may be more labs bred on the end of a chain attached to a tree in the back yard, than there are in a controlled well thought threw breeding. In order to consistently produce a lab that points parents grandparents and great grandparents should all point. In order to confirm this dogs should be titled by the APLA or at the very least have been owned or witnessed in the field by the breeder. Its always best to purchase from a repeat successful breeding.
Here is another novel idea. In order to be a PL breeder you should produce labs that POINT. If not, you arent a Pointing lab BREEDER. Just like if your lab doesn’t point its not a pointing lab. One of the problems is if you buy a pup and are told it’s a pointing lab if it flashes people are calling it a point. When buying a pl puppy research is important just as it was when GWP people started. At this point the pointing lab people have been snubbed so badly by the breed police of the German bred dog owners and so many of the conventional pointing breed people that they arent policing the breeding. What they are doing is identifying threw testing at a respectable standard. There are various levels starting with Certified and ending with Grand Master. These tests cover land and water retrieving and marking including blind retrieves, upland hunting, retrieving, and POINTING all in one day. Lesser titles requires three solid 5 second points, Master requires I believe four 15 or 20 second solid points. I feel this is somewhat the American way of doing things. It allows who ever wants to breed their dog yet gives clear ratings of what the dog can do. Sadly there are many breeders out there that are trying merely to better their bank accounts rather than better the Pointing Lab.

By the way what do you consider a real point? He who controls the definitions wins the debate.

Red Label Guide Service.
Corsica South Dakota

Ps I’ve seen a dog er two in the field. There is a reason the only dogs we run are labs that point.

red label, question.i have friend that is breeder like you.his is BORN2HUNT.i talked too him about POINTING LAB.he breeds field labs.

he said he tried the PL and got 2 dogs from top champions POINTING LAB.sadly the pups did not point.he said he took a big loss on that.i tried to get him to go back and try again but so far, he wont.
is there a assurance that if i buy a puppy from a PL BREEDER ,that little fella will point.
most pointing dog breeders i know when you buy a puppy like a LEWELLIN SETTER , they will point.

not being smart in anyway,i am interested in PL and may see one in fall hunting.
but i dont want too spend over 1,000 dollars on puppy and not have pointing instinct.

thanks sproul

Quote:

I’ve seen a dog er two in the field. There is a reason the only dogs we run are labs that point.

End Quote:

I would like to know that reason as I also have seen a dog or two in the field. Not trying to poke fun at anybody but trying to understand why a PL.

What does this breed offer others do not?

JW

Actually, there is no best all around dog. There are so many types of game that nobody can be an expert in all of them. How many expert hog hunters are expert ptarmigan hunters? Since we can't be an expert in every type of hunting, how can we judge whether one breed is better in some field we don't have much experience in?

Take any dog out of its element and it will have to learn the terrain and game all over again. Ex, chukar hunting in WA is much different than grouse hunting in PA which is different from the cornfields of IA. The local dog which knows where the local game lives and how to handle them will win over the dog that doesn't.

I agree, well stated.

each of us look at BEST ALL AROUND DOG with possibly our idea what is.
so when we say that, we are giving OUR opinion of why we feel it is.
even tho it may not be or to others they feel it is not.
so i guess you could say there is not BEST all depending on what each of us feel BEST is.
sproul what the heck did you just say anyhow?

JW, sorry it took so long to get back.
We decided to run pointing labs after owning numerous breeds and hunting with even more types of dogs. Our reasons are probably different than someone who hunts by himself no more than 3 days at a time.

Reason #
1. Temperament. I have seen three labs with unacceptable temperament. Owner error, breeding, interaction reaction, curable or not doesn’t matter. Those dogs In my not so humble opinion should have been put down. I don’t believe the dog whisperers bs either.
After having said this I dare say I have hunted with including those I have owned some where around 100 labs. I have been around ( tests, kennel visits ect ) probably 300 more. I would say the likelihood of one with bad temperament is poor. I can put a lab in the hunting bus with clients other dogs ect and not worry about a fight or bite.

2. General attitude. The lab seems to be as happy before the hunt as after the hunt. He enjoys a good scratching petting or any attention from any and every one before and after the hunt in his kennel or on the seat of his pickup. Keep in mind if you want a watch dog he may not work out but most dogs can be made to be cross if you really try. Most labs don’t care if they hunt cattails with ½ inch of ice or 16 inches of snow in 4 ft tall crp. When training ,every dog is different. PL’s can be made into a flushing dog quicker than some of the other dogs that point, however, labs are very forgiving to trainer error. Especially amateur trainers that are of below average ability, like me.

3. Toughness. Physically a lab well cared for and in good health pre season can hunt 15 days straight, sleep in an outdoor kennel, never have to have burs cut out or be groomed. No pink underbelly, no pink or bloody feet, no bright red strawberries under the males tail. Mentally he is just as happy every day at the end of the hunt as at the beginning. No guarding the bird pile. No picking fights because he’s cranky. No growling or biting people because he doesn’t want to be touched. I will say If a dog has an injury, is just wore out, has a little age on him ect we don’t push them as hard.

4. General ability. Labs have cons and pros in the upland field or in the blind. Here is where opinion enters into the equation. In our type of hunting ( wild birds in corn, cane, crp, cattails ect ) it takes a dog that works close and has a wide quartering search. We hunt with groups of 4 to 12 people in an organized predetermined effort. All in the hunt have input but before each drive there is a plan of attack. Therefore I don’t want a dog that I have to worry about hunting 100 yards ahead or into the neighbors ect. Can you imagine a dog 100 yards ahead in a corn field that’s been whittled down to 60 rows. Any dog no matter the breed can do that. But most labs lend themselves to good heeling ob and we don’t have problems. Honestly its very rare for a wild rooster to hold long in our vast crp fields here in SD until its worked down into a corner where blockers are waiting and keeping them from running out the ends. First snow,,, now that’s different. I do like a smaller lighter dog than most labs are. We breed 50 lb females and 60 lb males. I do own a 80 lb male that’s long and lanky that does a great job. We don’t use him for breeding but he is a great asset to our hunting business.

5. Monetarily. If I pay for every bird that hit’s the ground I cant afford not to have a retriever with the ability of a good lab. I run two dogs a day often shooting 40 birds. If 5 are crippled and 3 are found that means we would loose around 100 birds a year. Unacceptable. The price of a well bred well trained dog no matter the breed is expensive. I can run our hunting business easily with 4 good pointing labs. That allows for one to be on injured reserve and one to be either a little too young or old to go every day and still rotate the top 2 dogs. It would take a minimum of 7 with out labs.

6 Point. Its icing on the cake. I have sent many a client home with a new respect for a lab that points hard.

Sorry this is so long it could go on for a few more pages but these are the main reasons with out comparing breed to breed so as to say others are inferior in every type of hunting.

I'm not upset at all. Frankly, I could care less, although I enjoy the debate when it gets on this level. I am annoyed with how much hype a PL gets and have never been anything but dissapointed with what I've seen. I am not bashing... just bringing a little reality into the discussion.

I'm not sure what you mean by "conventional pointer". If you are referring to EP's, ES's and the like; I'd agree with you. If you are referring to continentals; I don't. If you can get past that most of us prefer having the dog deliver front on, which has nothing to do with the dog, you'll find that a well bred continental are, at least, equal to a lab; if not better. There are exceptions, but with the amount of emphasis over the past 150 years placed on the lines coming out of Germany; I don't feel there is any difference when it comes to retrieving in a hunting environment. No doubt, the labs will succeed better in retriever field trials where the dogs are being handled out at 400 yards. I'd say that is more due to the amount of independence we look for in our dogs; but it seems to me its a point of issue between two different styles of thought even in the lab world.

On the definition of point, I like the following:

The pointing stance must be intense, convincing, and umistakable as a point and, in the end, the point must be productive. If someone has to ask you if your dog is on point, it's not.

Not sure how you've been snubbed by the German breeds, but the notion of combining the testing organization and the breeding organization is a conflict of interest and has shown itself to fail. When the evaluation of a dog's pointing instinct (or any other instinct) falls into the hands of a few friends of the owner and future breeder of the dog; you're asking for trouble.

This kind of comes back to my earlier point in that there was an organization set up a few years ago called the Versatile Hunting Dog Federation. When it was formed, I remember a bunch of PL folks claiming they were going to run their dogs in this venue (accompanied by a few "screw NAVHDA"'s thrown in) and nothing has come of it. Regardless of whether there is really anything here to work with; I don't see much unbiased committment from the APLA's part to work on identifying/improving any lines. Instead, now you have Amish Puppy mills pedling Pointing Labs. Frankly, I have a difficult time understanding how this could mean progress.

I have too, which is why I don't.

I agree 100% I doubt anyone here would disagree with your post but the lab is still the most versatile dog there is. Pike