Originally Posted by
Red Label
Oh, now I understand Mustad.
Us beer drinking pickup driven pointing lab guys couldn’t hardly know what a real point looks like.
Point being made in guest but maybe the lab people are somewhat different in what they are looking for.
As far as Pointing lab people getting over ourselves, well I might suggest a few of the fine people of the pointing breeds get over the pointing lab people. I don’t think I have read many articles or posts on forums where the PL people are bashing the “pointing breeds”. As in this one it always starts with a conventional pointing breed owner getting upset because “labs don’t point”.
I'm not upset at all. Frankly, I could care less, although I enjoy the debate when it gets on this level. I am annoyed with how much hype a PL gets and have never been anything but dissapointed with what I've seen. I am not bashing... just bringing a little reality into the discussion.
Originally Posted by
Red Label
If conventional pointing dogs were judged by Retriever Field trial judges on natural retrieve, I dare say as you did a small percentage would even be considered able to make a passing retrieve and may not be considered as able to retrieve at all. None the less many are considered versatile. Yes there are a few that will naturally aggressively retrieve to heal and hold until given the command to drop, very few. Labs style of point is not readily enhanced, as a matter of fact trying to change or enhance a pl’s style is nearly always detrimental. I stopped that nonsense nearly a dozen years ago. If you are looking for a pl to pose the way english pointers do for pics you will be waiting a long long time. PL’s just arent wired that way.”.
I'm not sure what you mean by "conventional pointer". If you are referring to EP's, ES's and the like; I'd agree with you. If you are referring to continentals; I don't. If you can get past that most of us prefer having the dog deliver front on, which has nothing to do with the dog, you'll find that a well bred continental are, at least, equal to a lab; if not better. There are exceptions, but with the amount of emphasis over the past 150 years placed on the lines coming out of Germany; I don't feel there is any difference when it comes to retrieving in a hunting environment. No doubt, the labs will succeed better in retriever field trials where the dogs are being handled out at 400 yards. I'd say that is more due to the amount of independence we look for in our dogs; but it seems to me its a point of issue between two different styles of thought even in the lab world.
On the definition of point, I like the following:
The pointing stance must be intense, convincing, and umistakable as a point and, in the end, the point must be productive. If someone has to ask you if your dog is on point, it's not.
Originally Posted by
Red Label
You are right a small percentage of labs are actually pointing labs. I at times think there may be more labs bred on the end of a chain attached to a tree in the back yard, than there are in a controlled well thought threw breeding. In order to consistently produce a lab that points parents grandparents and great grandparents should all point. In order to confirm this dogs should be titled by the APLA or at the very least have been owned or witnessed in the field by the breeder. Its always best to purchase from a repeat successful breeding.
Here is another novel idea. In order to be a PL breeder you should produce labs that POINT. If not, you arent a Pointing lab BREEDER. Just like if your lab doesn’t point its not a pointing lab. One of the problems is if you buy a pup and are told it’s a pointing lab if it flashes people are calling it a point. When buying a pl puppy research is important just as it was when GWP people started. At this point the pointing lab people have been snubbed so badly by the breed police of the German bred dog owners and so many of the conventional pointing breed people that they arent policing the breeding. What they are doing is identifying threw testing at a respectable standard. There are various levels starting with Certified and ending with Grand Master. These tests cover land and water retrieving and marking including blind retrieves, upland hunting, retrieving, and POINTING all in one day. Lesser titles requires three solid 5 second points, Master requires I believe four 15 or 20 second solid points. I feel this is somewhat the American way of doing things. It allows who ever wants to breed their dog yet gives clear ratings of what the dog can do. Sadly there are many breeders out there that are trying merely to better their bank accounts rather than better the Pointing Lab.
Not sure how you've been snubbed by the German breeds, but the notion of combining the testing organization and the breeding organization is a conflict of interest and has shown itself to fail. When the evaluation of a dog's pointing instinct (or any other instinct) falls into the hands of a few friends of the owner and future breeder of the dog; you're asking for trouble.
This kind of comes back to my earlier point in that there was an organization set up a few years ago called the Versatile Hunting Dog Federation. When it was formed, I remember a bunch of PL folks claiming they were going to run their dogs in this venue (accompanied by a few "screw NAVHDA"'s thrown in) and nothing has come of it. Regardless of whether there is really anything here to work with; I don't see much unbiased committment from the APLA's part to work on identifying/improving any lines. Instead, now you have Amish Puppy mills pedling Pointing Labs. Frankly, I have a difficult time understanding how this could mean progress.
Originally Posted by
Red Label
Ps I’ve seen a dog er two in the field. There is a reason the only dogs we run are labs that point.
I have too, which is why I don't.