Originally Posted by
mustad
Here we go again. Red, I think I have conceded the point that "some" labs point. That said, some Teckel's point; some Blueticks point; some English Pointers don't point. There are always exceptions to any rule. There is always the chance that offspring won't hold the traits for which they were intended.
I just went out and watched another "pointing" lab do some birdwork this afternoon. I don't want to mention the breeder of the dog as it comes from an APLA affiliated kennel. The dog did outstanding bird work up until the point that it should have pointed. To say this dog pointed is frankly a joke; yet the owner was adamant that dog pointed. I am baffled by the insistence on this point (no pun intended). Y'all really need to get over yourselves. Statistically, if you took the total number of labs that exist today and calculated the percentage of those dogs that actually point as defined by any pointing dog organization; the percentage would probably be so low that to say labs don't point probably wouldn't be an erroneous comment. However, we live in a PC world today and if one lab in the universe shows an incling of pointing instinct; weak as it may be; by golly we better make sure we are calling it a pointing lab. Don't worry I get it. It's the same reason I have to call a stewardess a "flight attendant".
The interesting thing about this argument is I really don't have a problem with labs. I have owned and hunted over labs before. If I were just a duck hunter, I would own a lab (well actually a chessie); but I'm not. I also hunt ruffed grouse, wood****, spruce grouse, pheasants, chuckar, sharpies and huns as well as cottontails and snowshoe hare and prefer hunting over a pointing dog. I hunt in a variety of terrain ranging from the tight woods here in New England and Quebec; to the prairies of Montana and Saskatchewan to the mountains of Idaho as well as overseas; primarily in Germany. I also use my dogs to track down wounded deer, moose, wild boar and this year some New Foundlander Caribou if we're lucky enough.
So, maybe some labs point. Frankly though, I've never seen it and I've seen enough folks that say they have pointing labs and even after the lab takes the bird out, they insist there was a point there somewhere. Maybe I need to get my eyes checked or figure out how to use the freeze frame on my camera better. Until then, I would prefer having an actual pointing dog that has over a century of ancestry of dogs that have consistently pointed; but have and will concede to the fact that "some" labs "point" due to the impossibility that all labs don't.
I'd keep going, but the flight attendant just arrived with my rum and coke
Oh, now I understand Mustad.
Us beer drinking pickup driven pointing lab guys couldn’t hardly know what a real point looks like.
Point being made in guest but maybe the lab people are somewhat different in what they are looking for.
As far as Pointing lab people getting over ourselves, well I might suggest a few of the fine people of the pointing breeds get over the pointing lab people. I don’t think I have read many articles or posts on forums where the PL people are bashing the “pointing breeds”. As in this one it always starts with a conventional pointing breed owner getting upset because “labs don’t point”.
If conventional pointing dogs were judged by Retriever Field trial judges on natural retrieve, I dare say as you did a small percentage would even be considered able to make a passing retrieve and may not be considered as able to retrieve at all. None the less many are considered versatile. Yes there are a few that will naturally aggressively retrieve to heal and hold until given the command to drop, very few. Labs style of point is not readily enhanced, as a matter of fact trying to change or enhance a pl’s style is nearly always detrimental. I stopped that nonsense nearly a dozen years ago. If you are looking for a pl to pose the way english pointers do for pics you will be waiting a long long time. PL’s just arent wired that way.
You are right a small percentage of labs are actually pointing labs. I at times think there may be more labs bred on the end of a chain attached to a tree in the back yard, than there are in a controlled well thought threw breeding. In order to consistently produce a lab that points parents grandparents and great grandparents should all point. In order to confirm this dogs should be titled by the APLA or at the very least have been owned or witnessed in the field by the breeder. Its always best to purchase from a repeat successful breeding.
Here is another novel idea. In order to be a PL breeder you should produce labs that POINT. If not, you arent a Pointing lab BREEDER. Just like if your lab doesn’t point its not a pointing lab. One of the problems is if you buy a pup and are told it’s a pointing lab if it flashes people are calling it a point. When buying a pl puppy research is important just as it was when GWP people started. At this point the pointing lab people have been snubbed so badly by the breed police of the German bred dog owners and so many of the conventional pointing breed people that they arent policing the breeding. What they are doing is identifying threw testing at a respectable standard. There are various levels starting with Certified and ending with Grand Master. These tests cover land and water retrieving and marking including blind retrieves, upland hunting, retrieving, and POINTING all in one day. Lesser titles requires three solid 5 second points, Master requires I believe four 15 or 20 second solid points. I feel this is somewhat the American way of doing things. It allows who ever wants to breed their dog yet gives clear ratings of what the dog can do. Sadly there are many breeders out there that are trying merely to better their bank accounts rather than better the Pointing Lab.
By the way what do you consider a real point? He who controls the definitions wins the debate.
Red Label Guide Service.
Corsica South Dakota
Ps I’ve seen a dog er two in the field. There is a reason the only dogs we run are labs that point.