chaselton

I have a 1yr. old yellow lab that displays great enthusiasm and kicked butt in the dove field this yr. even though she was only 8 1/2 months old. Whenever I shoot a duck though or a goose for that matter she rockets out of the blind and will swim a river to find the bird but she really hesitates to actually pick the bird up to bring it back. She will mark well and go all the way to the bird but just doesn't want to pick it up and sometimes won't. I have a buddy who says I need to put her through force fetch. I saw what he didwith his dog and would prefer not to put her through it. She has never had an electronic collar on her in her life. You guys got any ideas?

EODLT

Huge Difference between a dove and a goose.

If someone asks you to pick up a 5 lb weight, you probably wouldnt hesitate. What if they asked you to pick up a 100 lb weight, you might be a little more reluctant...

A goose is a big heavy bird. Put 25 lbs in your mouth and run around the yard, see what the dog has to do. Many many dogs have trouble with geese, you have to get a dead goose, have someone else toss him and release your dog. When they get to the bird, they may try to pick it up or may just stare at it a minute and come back to you.

FF is for dogs that are not retrieveing on their own. If your dog has the drive to fetch over and over all day, then FF isnt necessary. You just have to be consistent when your training hold. Get a heavy bumper, biggest heaviest you can find, or better yet, a Dead-fowl goose. Teach the dog to "hold" this, carry it around the yard/house fora few days. Then have a buddy throw that sucker and see if the dog will pick it up, if not, re-toss and re-send, over and over until it is picked up. sneak in a real goose before you stop. Just remember what the dog is going through, physically and mentally, with a goose. Wounded geese can hurt dogs, you need to teach the dog to handle wounded ducks/ geese. Do this with a live bird, wings clipped or tied.

Good luck.

here is a link to a goose trainer.
http://www.gundogsupply.com/dkk-g1.html

Mite

FF if done properly is not cruel to the dog. It's part of the training for dogs that will only do a partial fetch or none. It reinforces the command to fetch by making it uncomfortable for the dog if they don't listen. Same with OB. Teaching the dog to heal, you either do a quick yank on the chord.Through repetition it will eventually heel. Yanking on the chord is uncomfortable for the dog. If you use a prong collar its the same basic principle, the pressure on the neck makes it uncomfortable.

In upland bird hunting, some don't need strict obedience in fetching as the hunter can always walk up and pick up a dead bird. But for a retriever doing waterfowl, its main purpose is to retrieve or whats the use of taking it? It is his job and as such, ff is part of the training. There are other methods of training like positive reinforcement (clicker, treats, etc.) but I have yet to see it being done or adapted to field hunting.

You probably saw your friend do an ear pinch or toe hitch. Another method is blowing in the dogs ear or grabbing its hock. Neither of the last two hurts the dog in anyway. An as for the ecollar, I would seriously suggest you think on that one. An ecollar is for when you absolutely need the dogs obedience like when the dogs life is in jeporady.

springerDIVA

Doves have dry feathers. A lot of field champions don't like to pick up doves.
Force fetch if done properly as a conditioned retreive will make your dog rock solid and more reliable regardless of breed or breeding.
I like the Mike Lardy method which starts with the conditioned "hold". The conditioning progresses into force fetch from there.
I personally don't care for the toe pinch, we have to trim nails from time to time and don't want them freaking out over their feet being touched. We use the ear pinch and have had sucess with it. Ear rubs and good ear cleaning practices prevent the dogs from being bothered by touching the ears.

bronko22000

I don't agree that FF isn't emotionally hard on a dog. I only ever FF trained one of my labs while she was young. Why I did this was the other labs I owned had a habit of dropping the birds at my feet on retrieve. I losta fewpheasant cripples that way or had to have the dog run them down again.
FF is hard on both the dog and the handler (if they really love their dog).
Am I sorry I did it - NO. This lab, now retired was the best hunting dog I ever owned. Hunted for pheasant and waterfowl. She never dropped a bird until told, took hand signals, etc. She was kept in the house and trained every day since she was 12 weeks old, play training first then rigorous trainingas she got older.
As for doves vs duck/geese - some dogs have a problem with doves because of their loose feathers. Fortunately I've never had the problem as my dogs had a strong hunting desire and a desire to please me.
If you do decide to FF train your dog, get a book on how to do it or have a pro do it for you. And please remember, discipline for errors and reward for a good job. But before you discipline, make sure the dog knows what is expected of it.

EODLT

Actually, this is not a FF issue, its a "hold" issue. When teaching the hold command, you can simutaneously teach a nice delievery to hand. When the dog is holding, tap the dumbell, roller, etc. If it is dropped, ear pinch and reinsert. repeat hold, and try again. Only when you say "Drop" or "give" or whatever else you want to say, does the dog get to release the object. usually in your hand.

Once again, FF is a way of FORCEING a dog to retrieve no matter what, he has no choice, you are in complete control of the dog, imposeing your will, the dog must comply or he will get some discomfort until he complies. This is what makes a dog never give up on a retrieve, never refuse, or he gets pressure (e-collar, ear-pinch). When FF is done right, it is not going to hurt your dog, the whole point is to show them that you are in control, they can do what you want and "turn off" the pressure, or they can sit there like a piece of lard and recieve discomfort, but not pain.

Doc E

Then it (FF) wasn't done correctly. Simple as that.


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chaselton

I appreciate the advice however I am not sure where the line is actually drawn between discomfort and pain. I'm sure the only FF training that I have witnessed may not have been the most humane however there is no arguing about the effectiveness of this technique. I have found these answers very informative and I wish to thank each of you who have replied to this post.

Doc E

Discomfort = Makes the dog respond to a command during training. (like withproperly usedheeling stick, ecollar, whiffle bat, choke collar, prong collar etc)

Pain = Will cause the dog to vocalize or shut down or both.


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EODLT

As Doc said.

Pain, the dog whimpers, lays down, tries to run away, tries to bite you. You will know when the dog is in "pain".

Discomfort, something that is more annoying and pests than actually hurting. Like a ear pinch, it bothers the dog, but really doesnt "hurt" them. They figure out that when they perform a certain act, the annoyance goes away, and only when they do a certain act.

Its like when your wife or mother is nagging you to take out the trash, you do it so that they will shut up, not because they are physically pulling on your ear all the way out to the can. (usually)