Buffers for rifles
12-27-2004, 07:34 AM
#1
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location:
Posts: 1,832
Buffers for rifles
In the last few months I have noticed alot more advertisements about
buffers for rifles in some of my favorite hunting magazines.I'm just wondering if any comercial rifle cartridge manufacturers are toying with the idea.
One magazine artical I read reportadly claimed federal designed a 30-06
cartridge that truly was capapable of 300 H&H magnum balistics.
Using a 180gr bullet in the Nos Accubond, TBBC, Hrn INTBOND, and a full dose of 4831SC behind it as the propellent this author claimed that
the velocity of the cartridge was above or around the 2900fps.
If this is true the pressure levels must be low enough to be safely fired in virtually any rifle offered in the 30-06 cal. It is just a guess but
the only way I think they can do this is by using a different loading method by possibly using a buffer.
I just want to read some thoughts and feedback on your ideas as to weather or not I am on the right track or way off in left field
thanks
buffers for rifles in some of my favorite hunting magazines.I'm just wondering if any comercial rifle cartridge manufacturers are toying with the idea.
One magazine artical I read reportadly claimed federal designed a 30-06
cartridge that truly was capapable of 300 H&H magnum balistics.
Using a 180gr bullet in the Nos Accubond, TBBC, Hrn INTBOND, and a full dose of 4831SC behind it as the propellent this author claimed that
the velocity of the cartridge was above or around the 2900fps.
If this is true the pressure levels must be low enough to be safely fired in virtually any rifle offered in the 30-06 cal. It is just a guess but
the only way I think they can do this is by using a different loading method by possibly using a buffer.
I just want to read some thoughts and feedback on your ideas as to weather or not I am on the right track or way off in left field
thanks
12-27-2004, 08:44 AM
#2
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: La Grange, TX
Posts: 324
RE: Buffers for rifles
The only way you can increase MV at the same pressures is to use one of the new triple based powders of the Viht 500 series, maybe in conjunction with a coated bullet. And or a longer barrel.
You won't get there safely with what we've come to consider as standard. That includes 4831SC.
Unless something has recently changed that I'm not aware of.
The high energy rounds you hear of are basically loaded with that Viht 500 series powder(sometimes in bulk to a manufacturer it will have a different name or number- much as Varget is Mulwex 5508(may not be the right number) in Australia)
Jeff
You won't get there safely with what we've come to consider as standard. That includes 4831SC.
Unless something has recently changed that I'm not aware of.
The high energy rounds you hear of are basically loaded with that Viht 500 series powder(sometimes in bulk to a manufacturer it will have a different name or number- much as Varget is Mulwex 5508(may not be the right number) in Australia)
Jeff
12-27-2004, 12:00 PM
#3
Spike
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Oshkosh WI.
Posts: 19
RE: Buffers for rifles
Buffer?¿ Never heard of the term buffer being used in relation to a rifle round. Fillers, yes in reduced loadings to take up space. Buffers are used in shotshell loads to fill the spaces around the pellets to reduce the deforming of the pellets during acceleration.
12-28-2004, 11:14 AM
#4
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location:
Posts: 1,832
RE: Buffers for rifles
Sorry for the confusion.Boy don't I feel stupid.
I was thinking of fillers not buffers when posting this comment but couldn't
remember at the time what was added to rifle cartridges to take up space in reduced loadings so I guessed.
It was a late night for me couldn't get any sleep so I went on the forum
at 3:30am to get some things off my mind.
Anyways, with the bullets I mentioned the 180gr TBBC, Hornady Interbond, Nosler Accubond one would think powder charge would have to be compromised because these bullets are long.Yes I'm sure you can
compress the loads but if one was to compare powder capacities between bullets ( eg. partitins, interlock,hotcor) and the bonded bullets you probably will find that the max charge of powder will be reduced in cartridges that use the bonded bullets.
For my moose hunt this year I handloaded 20 3006 rifle cartridges using
TBBC bullets and 52gr of IMR 4350 that was the starting load.The max load of powder that Speer loading data offers for this 180gr bullet is 54gr MV with the 52gr. is only 2568fps. MV with 54gr is 2606fps.
H4831 has a min charge of 57gr( MV 2606fps) and a max charge of 59gr
MV 2689fps.
Keeping this in mind how then are comercial cartridge manufactures able
to break the 2900 fps with a 180gr bullet in a 3006 cal. if some other loading method has not been develped and now used.
I was thinking of fillers not buffers when posting this comment but couldn't
remember at the time what was added to rifle cartridges to take up space in reduced loadings so I guessed.
It was a late night for me couldn't get any sleep so I went on the forum
at 3:30am to get some things off my mind.
Anyways, with the bullets I mentioned the 180gr TBBC, Hornady Interbond, Nosler Accubond one would think powder charge would have to be compromised because these bullets are long.Yes I'm sure you can
compress the loads but if one was to compare powder capacities between bullets ( eg. partitins, interlock,hotcor) and the bonded bullets you probably will find that the max charge of powder will be reduced in cartridges that use the bonded bullets.
For my moose hunt this year I handloaded 20 3006 rifle cartridges using
TBBC bullets and 52gr of IMR 4350 that was the starting load.The max load of powder that Speer loading data offers for this 180gr bullet is 54gr MV with the 52gr. is only 2568fps. MV with 54gr is 2606fps.
H4831 has a min charge of 57gr( MV 2606fps) and a max charge of 59gr
MV 2689fps.
Keeping this in mind how then are comercial cartridge manufactures able
to break the 2900 fps with a 180gr bullet in a 3006 cal. if some other loading method has not been develped and now used.
12-29-2004, 07:41 AM
#6
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: La Grange, TX
Posts: 324
RE: Buffers for rifles
Compressed charges don't hurt a thing and may actually help accuracy at times. No negative affect though. Up to a certain point. As to bonded bullets taking up more space, it can't be because they are bonded if thats what you are inferring. It can only be relative to the bullets overall shape. Which is related to the weight and whether it has a boattail or not most of the time. WIthout looking and I could be wrong, but I'd bet that a 180 ballistic tip and a 180 accubond are the same size almost exactly.
YOu also have to realize that if you are not chronographing your loads you have no clue. Your loads may be 100-200 fps faster or slower than what you think. And factory loads are known to be a bit optomistic at times. OR they'll use a 26 inch test barrel when all the factory guns have 22 inch tubes etc....
Basically nothing new has been invented other than a combo of moly bullets and N500 powders could net you a gain of 100-150 fps max over whats considered normal. And in some rifles it may net nothing. Then you have to consider the chambers and throat lenghts, angles and designs. And what type of rifling is being used. All factor in to what you end up with on the front end.
Jeff
YOu also have to realize that if you are not chronographing your loads you have no clue. Your loads may be 100-200 fps faster or slower than what you think. And factory loads are known to be a bit optomistic at times. OR they'll use a 26 inch test barrel when all the factory guns have 22 inch tubes etc....
Basically nothing new has been invented other than a combo of moly bullets and N500 powders could net you a gain of 100-150 fps max over whats considered normal. And in some rifles it may net nothing. Then you have to consider the chambers and throat lenghts, angles and designs. And what type of rifling is being used. All factor in to what you end up with on the front end.
Jeff
01-01-2005, 02:03 PM
#7
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location:
Posts: 1,832
RE: Buffers for rifles
Was browsing through the Hornady web sits earlier today and noticed
Hornady offers light mag ammunition. Their velocity is claimed to be 2900fps for a 180gr bullet. They say they use a cooler burning powder and a unique loading method to achieve this extra energy in standard calibers. I understand that this is a advertisement and that companies like to exagerate but Writers don't.They tend to be unbias, they get all the facts in and test them under alot of different conditions before they make a descision based on results.Granted Results will be different for everbody because factors play a part in the end. Barrels ,climate, elavation will all effect what you achieve.But one should see an improvement in flatter trajecteries using higher velocity loads and higher retained energy at impact regardless of where you live even if you can't chornograph
your loads fired throgh your gun. Whether or not one gets the same accuracy or tightness of grouping is up to the individual and his allowable tolerences. The 3006 has always been a great caliber its all I use its versitility is unmathed but these improvements I think will serve to enhance its performance and keep it the leader of the pack.
Hornady offers light mag ammunition. Their velocity is claimed to be 2900fps for a 180gr bullet. They say they use a cooler burning powder and a unique loading method to achieve this extra energy in standard calibers. I understand that this is a advertisement and that companies like to exagerate but Writers don't.They tend to be unbias, they get all the facts in and test them under alot of different conditions before they make a descision based on results.Granted Results will be different for everbody because factors play a part in the end. Barrels ,climate, elavation will all effect what you achieve.But one should see an improvement in flatter trajecteries using higher velocity loads and higher retained energy at impact regardless of where you live even if you can't chornograph
your loads fired throgh your gun. Whether or not one gets the same accuracy or tightness of grouping is up to the individual and his allowable tolerences. The 3006 has always been a great caliber its all I use its versitility is unmathed but these improvements I think will serve to enhance its performance and keep it the leader of the pack.
01-01-2005, 02:34 PM
#8
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: fort mcmurray alberta canada
Posts: 5,667
RE: Buffers for rifles
I understand that this is a advertisement and that companies like to exagerate but Writers don't.They tend to be unbias, they get all the facts in and test them under alot of different conditions before they make a descision based on results.Granted
01-03-2005, 04:23 AM
#9
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Body in SE WI, mind in U.P.
Posts: 4,781
RE: Buffers for rifles
Hornady offers light mag ammunition. Their velocity is claimed to be 2900fps for a 180gr bullet. They say they use a cooler burning powder and a unique loading method to achieve this extra energy in standard calibers.
01-03-2005, 04:41 AM
#10
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: NW Ohio , 5 min from Ottawa National / Magee Marsh
Posts: 2,051
RE: Buffers for rifles
I read that the way Hornady gets all that powder in the case is to put some in compress add more compress and then add the rest and seat the bullet . The artical said Hornady spent lots of time and $ figureing out how to do it safely and it's one of those things " don't try this at home"
