Hotburn76

I just bought a few dies from RCBS, a deprimer and neck sizer die. I have been using a lee die set and have been using a Redding body die to bump the shoulder and then the FL sizer set up just a tad to just do the neck. I have 100 rounds of Hornady brass, the same brass that I made a post about a while back about getting some loose primer pockets. Well I deprime, then bump all my shoulders and then I start to neck size. I noticed right away their was not much drag at all. Took a bullet and I could shove it in the case by hand. Took the RCBS die out and put in the LEE die and it sized it fine, meaning I could not push bullet in by hand. I pulled both the sizer pins and they both measured .202 with a caliper. The hornady brass has been neck turned and I have been told that Lee dies over work brass compared to most dies. Could the Lee die have a smaller inside bore on the neck part smashing it down more then the RCBS, and the thinner necks are problem? I did notice that after I neck turned the cases they did not size near as hard. Before I turned the necks the lee die was real hard to work, even with alot of lube. Or could I have a bad RCBS die? I also bought 100 Winchester brass and neck sized a few of them. I could not push the bullet in with them, but the necks are also way out of round, they looked ok after sizing, but they must take them out of the presses with pliers, or scoop them up with coal shovels cause all the necks are bent pretty good on all of them. Sorry so long, just confused on this.

eldeguello

Could the Lee die have a smaller inside bore on the neck part smashing it down more then the RCBS, and the thinner necks are problem?

Could be!! Try your RCBS neck-sizing die with cases that have NOT had their necks turned. It is possible that the ones you turned are now too thin to work correctly in a sizing die that does not reduce them as much as the Lee die does...... Obviously, the problem is NOT the expander plufgs, if both are the exact same size (.202").

HEAD0001

My first question would be-how much did you take off the necks?? You really do not need to take off a lot if you are not prepping for a tight match chamber. And you definitely need to full size your brass before you turn your necks. You have to take the runout--out of your brass before you turn the necks. If your neck and case body arenot aligned before you neck turn, then all neck turning does is compound your problem.

Are you using your expander ball with the Neck sizer?? You could be working the shoulders too much also. The expander ball will have an adverse effect on the shoulder if it is not supported.

On any cases I turn I will normally use a collet sizing die. Your problem with the RCBS not sizing the neck down is surely what you say it is.

I am, a bit disgusted with new Winchester brass. I normally have to buy 500 pieces and sort through it to find 100 pieces that are acceptable. I just did a little study on 500 pieces of Winchester 223 brass. The results were awful. I sorted out 80 cases from 500 that I thought were acceptable to use.

I believe I understand what you are trying to do by using the different dies. I basically do the same thing(I do not use the body die). I also do not like to overwork the brass, which is what I think your goal is?? However IMO part of your problem is being caused by the expander ball. I take the expander ball out of my dies, and I use the Sinclair sizing mandrel. Tom.

Hotburn76

I measured my necks at .011 with a mic. I asked a guy at work and he said it is on the thin side but as long as the bullet held in tight it was ok. With the Lee die they did hold in just fine, but I am thinking the Lee Die as Lawrence said must be smaller then the RCBS die. I tried not to take much off the necks, only tried to make them uniform. Seamed like .011 made them all the same, guy at work said tool does not need to take metal off the entire turn, just nock off the high spots. These cases had all been shot several times before being turned. Then they where all FL sized with the lee dies and turned.


Expander Ball? are you talking about the pin/shaft in the center of the sizing die that pulls the neck back out after it has been shoved in? Yes it is in, supposed to be in right? Not sure what you mean with this.


What do you consider bad brass and good brass? Hope all this brass looks better after the first time it is fired, right now it looks kinda sad, I FL sized them, which helped the bent necks look better, but the body's are still full of dents.


Over working is part of the goal, better groups is the other part. I use the body die to just bump the shoulder, why? cause I read it on forums like this and have not tried to just plain neck size only. I have a break open style and was told I would have to get a body die to just bump the shoulder, otherwise my break open would not "lock up" good and "pop" open a little when fired, so that is why I use the shoulder die. My head space is about .008 difference from a FL sized case to a fired case. I bought the RCBS shoulder mic and bullet measurement tool. Then when I use the body die I set it up to just bump the shoulder .001 off from the fire case original measurement.


Again, explain more of the expander stuff to me, this removing it stuff is new to me and this is the first time I have heard of taking it out. And explain more of the Sinclair sizing mandrel and what you use it for.

Thanks guys so far, sorry I talk long winded. Also here are some pics of my RCBS modified neck turning tool. The mandrel that came in it was to short IMO and the neck could be pushed out of round when turned real easy when I was doing it. I have access to a lathe and made a new style with a pin on the end for the primer hole to hold the case centered and true. I then milled out a spot for a mic and can measure necks with the same tool. When compared to a feeler gauge it is right on the money.

Jason

HEAD0001

I am assuming you mean a TC Encore or a H&R Handi. When sizing for this I first want to know the gap between the breech face and the barrel. Mike Bellm does a good job explaining proper die set up.

When I get new brass I sort it by weight, and by the thickness of the brass in the neck. I like all my brass to weigh within .3 of a grain.After I have weighed my brass and sorted by weight, I then check the thickness and run out of the brass in the neck. If this measurement is less than .002 then I keep it. It it is .002 or larger then I discard the brass. This small amount of difference(in the thickness of the neck) makes neck turning very easy. There is very little, if any brass to take off.

I like the way you made your trimmer mandrel. Nice job!!

The expander ball is what brings your neck back up to caliber size after you have sized the neck. I do not like them because the expander ball has a (drastic) effect on the shoulder(because it is unsupported) as it is pulling and expanding the neck.

The Sinclair neck mandrel is a mandrel(similar to your neck turning mandrel) that sizes the inside of the neck in a separate step. I lube the mandrel, and only size clean brass.

I load for several TC Encore cartridges. I normally only neck size, I do not buy into the bump the shoulder theory. But when I do want to bump the shouder I just do it with a FL sizerdie. I just have tomake sure I adjust it properly. Remember your case for the break open action is going to be longer because of the gap I spoke of earlier. So it is not so much bumping the shoulder as it is shortening the case(it just happens to be that bumping the shoulder is the easiest way to shorten the case). Remember some cases do not headspace off the shoulder.

You really should neck turn your brass before you shoot it.

Below is a 6.5X284 I am getting tuned in pretty good. Tom.

Hotburn76

Well I still am not having luck with the RCBS neck die. The Winchester brass that I bought was FL sized with the Lee die and then I just loaded up some mild loads to fire form the brass, mainly to blow out all the dents as they drove me nuts. Came home and neck sized with the RCBS die and I could still push the bullets in if I pushed with the tips of my fingers. So I neck sized them all with the RCBS die and checked the neck wall thickness. They varied from the thinest spots at .012 to the thickest at .0135 and I have not neck turned these at all. The necks should be thick enough right, even if I turned down to .012?

Well I made up a pin type gauge at work out of brass and after getting it close to the right diameter I just turned it down until it would fit snugly into the RCBS die. I ended up with a round stock that measured at .2315 that would fit firmly into the die. I then continued to size it down until it fit into the Lee die and it did at .2240 and was also a tight fit, no slop. So from this measurement of .231 subtract .204 and then .002 for proper tension I need brass with a wall thickness of .01475 for this RCBS to work, right? My lee die should take brass at .011 and mine measure a loaded round at .225 so that should put the walls at .0105 which is pretty close. For me that helps with why the Le dies still work and the RCBS dies do not. Next question is should I send the die back to RCBS and the next one will be right or are they all like this? I would guess a none adjustable die would be made for brass around .012 or less IMO. Does all this sound right or am I way off base on this one?

Thanks Guys!