NY Bowhunters proposal
02-05-2005, 08:00 AM
#21
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Caledonia, NY
Posts: 773
RE: NY Bowhunters proposal
ORIGINAL: BuckAlley
Personally I don't buy the DEC's claim they want a 7 day ML season to help control the deer population better. Not when they reduced DMP's in most of the state in 2004, and I just read in todays Syracuse paper DMP's will be reduced again for 2005, after another low deer harvest for 2004. The exact numbers have not been made avail yet. But they are saying the harvest was lower then 2003. If the DMP's are lowered, I don't foresee many areas even being opened to this doe only 7 day ML. Probably mostly western NY. I think its more of a push from the ML organizations to extend ML opportunities seeing hunters pay the same fee's for archery as do ML, and get less time. I also feel the ML season will increase in time, and most likely become a either sex season in several DMU's. As it is in the Northern Zone.
Back to the early season bowhunting. I enjoy it alot. Its great to start archery, setting up on food sources, then changing setups to the patterns of deer. You get to hunt it all from early fall feeding to pre-rut to full rut. Some yrs I start 9/27, I can never get enough bow time in.
On the Oct 1st ML idea. I don't know there. It'd obviously have less effect on the population towards rut. But it may drive some Big Bucks into Noctornal life earlier then normal. I could live with a early ML season then archery. But I'd prefer it before the regular season or late season like many suggest.
I don't foresee the DEC changing it all for 2005 anyways. Not with meetings Sch. all this Feb yet. But who knows. I just hope it works out for the best for everyone.
Personally I don't buy the DEC's claim they want a 7 day ML season to help control the deer population better. Not when they reduced DMP's in most of the state in 2004, and I just read in todays Syracuse paper DMP's will be reduced again for 2005, after another low deer harvest for 2004. The exact numbers have not been made avail yet. But they are saying the harvest was lower then 2003. If the DMP's are lowered, I don't foresee many areas even being opened to this doe only 7 day ML. Probably mostly western NY. I think its more of a push from the ML organizations to extend ML opportunities seeing hunters pay the same fee's for archery as do ML, and get less time. I also feel the ML season will increase in time, and most likely become a either sex season in several DMU's. As it is in the Northern Zone.
Back to the early season bowhunting. I enjoy it alot. Its great to start archery, setting up on food sources, then changing setups to the patterns of deer. You get to hunt it all from early fall feeding to pre-rut to full rut. Some yrs I start 9/27, I can never get enough bow time in.
On the Oct 1st ML idea. I don't know there. It'd obviously have less effect on the population towards rut. But it may drive some Big Bucks into Noctornal life earlier then normal. I could live with a early ML season then archery. But I'd prefer it before the regular season or late season like many suggest.
I don't foresee the DEC changing it all for 2005 anyways. Not with meetings Sch. all this Feb yet. But who knows. I just hope it works out for the best for everyone.
02-05-2005, 08:02 AM
#22
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Western New York
Posts: 606
RE: NY Bowhunters proposal
my biggest problem is with the ML season I do feel that they are paying extra and should get extra why not give them the week before shotgun all to themselves ? let them take buck or doe then maybe the last week of reg season antlerless only (the dec is going to shove this down our throat anyway ) I just think that this would simplify things
02-05-2005, 05:03 PM
#23
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Altmar New York USA
Posts: 1,247
RE: NY Bowhunters proposal
Well Phade I guess I'm a blooming Igit. For some reason I always thought the DEC's main mgmt tool was harvesting deer, and the past several seasons the DEC has pushed to Harvest MORE deer to control this very overwhelming deer population we have! So I guess thats the reason why they want to implement this 7 day doe only ML season, becasue us Bowhunters can't control it. Just like you said. I guess that fits the puzzle perfectly even after lowering DMP's in 2004, and for 2005. So now lets give us this extra 7 day ML season for doe only, and you can still bowhunt those 7 days, BUT ONLY WITH DMP AND DMAP TAGS! Under the latest proposal. Gee how many hunters will get the shaft on this deal. So this doesn't even cover the tags you pay extra for to use the special seasons to begin with! Now a ML hunter has to buy his license, and get his 2 either sex and antlerless only tags, and still has to hope for a DMP in his hunting area to even get to use his license for those 7 days. Yup that makes alot of good deer mgmt regulated sense to me!!!!!!!!
02-05-2005, 05:32 PM
#24
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Caledonia, NY
Posts: 773
RE: NY Bowhunters proposal
ORIGINAL: BuckAlley
Well Phade I guess I'm a blooming Igit. For some reason I always thought the DEC's main mgmt tool was harvesting deer, and the past several seasons the DEC has pushed to Harvest MORE deer to control this very overwhelming deer population we have! So I guess thats the reason why they want to implement this 7 day doe only ML season, becasue us Bowhunters can't control it. Just like you said. I guess that fits the puzzle perfectly even after lowering DMP's in 2004, and for 2005. So now lets give us this extra 7 day ML season for doe only, and you can still bowhunt those 7 days, BUT ONLY WITH DMP AND DMAP TAGS! Under the latest proposal. Gee how many hunters will get the shaft on this deal. So this doesn't even cover the tags you pay extra for to use the special seasons to begin with! Now a ML hunter has to buy his license, and get his 2 either sex and antlerless only tags, and still has to hope for a DMP in his hunting area to even get to use his license for those 7 days. Yup that makes alot of good deer mgmt regulated sense to me!!!!!!!!
Well Phade I guess I'm a blooming Igit. For some reason I always thought the DEC's main mgmt tool was harvesting deer, and the past several seasons the DEC has pushed to Harvest MORE deer to control this very overwhelming deer population we have! So I guess thats the reason why they want to implement this 7 day doe only ML season, becasue us Bowhunters can't control it. Just like you said. I guess that fits the puzzle perfectly even after lowering DMP's in 2004, and for 2005. So now lets give us this extra 7 day ML season for doe only, and you can still bowhunt those 7 days, BUT ONLY WITH DMP AND DMAP TAGS! Under the latest proposal. Gee how many hunters will get the shaft on this deal. So this doesn't even cover the tags you pay extra for to use the special seasons to begin with! Now a ML hunter has to buy his license, and get his 2 either sex and antlerless only tags, and still has to hope for a DMP in his hunting area to even get to use his license for those 7 days. Yup that makes alot of good deer mgmt regulated sense to me!!!!!!!!
I did not feed those words however, make that clear.But the reason why they are having this hunt is to make effective use of the DMP/DMAP tags. They issue them as a means to control the deer to the numbers they feel is acceptable. This is IN ADDITION to the already calculated REG/BOW/MZ tags handed out.
The history as has been already spoken about by SteveBNY, myself, and others of DMP/DMAP tags have not been fully utilized to the point the DEC wishes. Hence the logic for the season.
The point in question is how to manage the tags, and we all agree this is not the way to go, and there is a better way. However, we all have different opinions on what is the "better" way.
02-06-2005, 09:31 AM
#26
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Altmar New York USA
Posts: 1,247
RE: NY Bowhunters proposal
But, the DEC's response is logical to that. They will say....."Why do you think we put an early doe only MZ season in?"..............Answer: Because bowhunters are not controlling the herd as well as a week long doe only MZ season would. And I have to agree on that one, unfortunately.
Phade I guess I musta misundertood this previous quote of yours earlier on one the DEC's possible answers to the 7 day ML season!
To make better use of the DMP's you say. But don't we get a antlerless only tag with our special license purchases???? So heck w/ that tag, and just allow DMP's to harvest doe to control the population. I'm mean isn't DOE ONLY enough during this 7 day period to help control the population, regulate it, mgmt it. Why restrict it to DMP's only? If cutting back the DMP's why even bother having this 7 day doe only season to begin with?? The only thing I can gather by the DMP's only is the DEC has concerns of a over harvest during this 7 day ML season. If the population is that low that its of that much of a concern. Then why do it to begin with!!!! It makes very little sense to me. VERY LITTLE!
Phade I guess I musta misundertood this previous quote of yours earlier on one the DEC's possible answers to the 7 day ML season!
To make better use of the DMP's you say. But don't we get a antlerless only tag with our special license purchases???? So heck w/ that tag, and just allow DMP's to harvest doe to control the population. I'm mean isn't DOE ONLY enough during this 7 day period to help control the population, regulate it, mgmt it. Why restrict it to DMP's only? If cutting back the DMP's why even bother having this 7 day doe only season to begin with?? The only thing I can gather by the DMP's only is the DEC has concerns of a over harvest during this 7 day ML season. If the population is that low that its of that much of a concern. Then why do it to begin with!!!! It makes very little sense to me. VERY LITTLE!
02-06-2005, 02:36 PM
#27
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Caledonia, NY
Posts: 773
RE: NY Bowhunters proposal
ORIGINAL: BuckAlley
But, the DEC's response is logical to that. They will say....."Why do you think we put an early doe only MZ season in?"..............Answer: Because bowhunters are not controlling the herd as well as a week long doe only MZ season would. And I have to agree on that one, unfortunately.
Phade I guess I musta misundertood this previous quote of yours earlier on one the DEC's possible answers to the 7 day ML season!
To make better use of the DMP's you say. But don't we get a antlerless only tag with our special license purchases???? So heck w/ that tag, and just allow DMP's to harvest doe to control the population. I'm mean isn't DOE ONLY enough during this 7 day period to help control the population, regulate it, mgmt it. Why restrict it to DMP's only? If cutting back the DMP's why even bother having this 7 day doe only season to begin with?? The only thing I can gather by the DMP's only is the DEC has concerns of a over harvest during this 7 day ML season. If the population is that low that its of that much of a concern. Then why do it to begin with!!!! It makes very little sense to me. VERY LITTLE!
But, the DEC's response is logical to that. They will say....."Why do you think we put an early doe only MZ season in?"..............Answer: Because bowhunters are not controlling the herd as well as a week long doe only MZ season would. And I have to agree on that one, unfortunately.
Phade I guess I musta misundertood this previous quote of yours earlier on one the DEC's possible answers to the 7 day ML season!
To make better use of the DMP's you say. But don't we get a antlerless only tag with our special license purchases???? So heck w/ that tag, and just allow DMP's to harvest doe to control the population. I'm mean isn't DOE ONLY enough during this 7 day period to help control the population, regulate it, mgmt it. Why restrict it to DMP's only? If cutting back the DMP's why even bother having this 7 day doe only season to begin with?? The only thing I can gather by the DMP's only is the DEC has concerns of a over harvest during this 7 day ML season. If the population is that low that its of that much of a concern. Then why do it to begin with!!!! It makes very little sense to me. VERY LITTLE!
The reason why the DEC is using DMP/DMAP only is beacuse they are micromanaging the herd. Everyone in the state gets an antlerless only tag. However, the DMP/DMAP's get issues specific to the area. They make us use the DMP/DMAP tags so they can manage the specific areas, since it allows harvesting based upon the needs of the area itself.
If the statewide tags were used, the DEC could not guarantee the harvest needs to be met in each area. One area might have 50% more doe kill than needed, and another might be 40% below what was needed.
Use the DMP/DMAP, and the DEC can make sure that no one specific area sees more harvests than needed, causing trouble in the following years.
They do the season because it forces the use of the DMP/DMAP which is their only way to manage take in smaller areas. Even with a low herd number like this year, it can spike next year with no problem if the harvest goals are not met. The season prevents the UP and DOWN herd numbers that causes several problems from a management perspective. They want to maintain a stable healthy population.
It could easily go from 800,000 deer to 1,400,000 in a year if the harvests were lower than needed. They'd rather prefer a 800,00-1,000,000 number each year, which is easier to control.
I understand and follow that logic, but disagree with the way the state is using the tags season wise. There has to be a better way.
02-06-2005, 02:40 PM
#28
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Caledonia, NY
Posts: 773
RE: NY Bowhunters proposal
ORIGINAL: Charlie P
Okey dokey.
It is not about killing MORE deer. It is about haveing a better regulated kill, ie more manageable.
It is
If it were about killing more deer, the DEC would have done several things already before heading to this. They would have made the 23 day regular season longer, and encouraged a longer backend extension on the MZ season.
The management tool here is regulating the killing of does specific to the needs in the area, which is the reason why only DMP/DMAP tags are being allowed. This is their effort to micromanage the herd....
02-06-2005, 09:08 PM
#29
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Brockport, NY
Posts: 613
RE: NY Bowhunters proposal
I wonder if these changes are only now being implemented because of Ms Crotty leaving the DEC. Makes ya wonder who the next head honcho will be, and what they will do. Maybe if we are lucky, theyll have some kind of background in game management, herd dynamics, public relations, etc etc...
The thing that makes this all so hard is...theyre trying to manage a state-wide herd when too much of the deer-supporting ground is off-limits to hunting. Whether its inaccessable lands, private, or just posted, the management tool of hunting can, at best, scour the available land of most deer. By the time you figure in the deer in the inaccessable land and take that average, they see their target numbers. Lets face it, it aint getting easier. The old 100 acre parcels are now often ten 10 acre parcels. Ten owners to say yes or no concerning hunting allowed.
The thing that makes this all so hard is...theyre trying to manage a state-wide herd when too much of the deer-supporting ground is off-limits to hunting. Whether its inaccessable lands, private, or just posted, the management tool of hunting can, at best, scour the available land of most deer. By the time you figure in the deer in the inaccessable land and take that average, they see their target numbers. Lets face it, it aint getting easier. The old 100 acre parcels are now often ten 10 acre parcels. Ten owners to say yes or no concerning hunting allowed.
02-06-2005, 10:36 PM
#30
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Altmar New York USA
Posts: 1,247
RE: NY Bowhunters proposal
Phade I understand your not in total agreement with this proposal, but for some reason you seem to believe you have a total understanding if its reasons. So now were talking the 7 day ml, doe only, DMP tag only as a micro-mgmt tool! I really wonder if the DEC even has a clue anymore! In my DMU I've seen 2 yrs of double issued permits, to 1 permit, to permit w/ perference pt only, to landowners only, and now to help fill permits, and micro mgmt our herds open this special DMP ML season. I still say its b.s. There are other reasons were not being made aware of here.
Here's what I think, its more to satisfy the groups wanting more ML time, its to give hunters more opportunity in the woods becasue license sales are down, and that results in lack of $ to the DEC. But I feel the big reason license sales are down in this state is becasue of what hunters want most! Large bucks, and lots of deer. How many hunters you know consider hunts in states known for larger bucks such as Illinios, Kansas, etc. Think back to when deer hunters #'s were up, we had alot more deer. Now I understand we have to mgmt to the carrying capacity of the land, but its since become more then that. Its about crop lands damage, auto-deer accidents. The lack of deer, and large bucks has caused hunters in this state to buy, lease, and post lands for their own private use to manage their own herds for that lifetime trophy. I know for a fact two large companys in this state that lease lands for hunting rights are sold out on leases. All their woods are being leased. Just like Yox wrote private, posted, and unhunted lands are harbouring alot of deer, that are being accounted for in the overall population. Deer that can't be harvested. Deer that regulate how many permits will be issued to each DMU. So how can the DEC even possibly mgmt this herd correctly. Thats where the problem is private, posted, unhuntable lands harbouring deer. To help solve this issue the DEC needs to consider such things as tax breaks for private land owners opening their land to hunting. Going to a full QDM program to grow larger bucks, and develope a healthier herd. The move towards 2 DMU's being antlered restricted is the first step, but it should've been done yrs ago. I was learning about QDM 20yrs ago in college, but yet its the private owners that are practicing QDM, planting food plots, making antler restrictions in their hunting groups. Not our fabulous DEC. Its time this state WOKE UP! A 7 day doe only, DMP tag only ml season in the middle of archery is hardly the answer. Why is it being proposed in the middle of Oct., and archery season? Becasue thats the soonest the DEC proclaims they can issue DMP's for the upcoming season, even with the computer license system upgrade. More b.s. Too much B.S. ,I'm tired of the B.S., period!
Here's what I think, its more to satisfy the groups wanting more ML time, its to give hunters more opportunity in the woods becasue license sales are down, and that results in lack of $ to the DEC. But I feel the big reason license sales are down in this state is becasue of what hunters want most! Large bucks, and lots of deer. How many hunters you know consider hunts in states known for larger bucks such as Illinios, Kansas, etc. Think back to when deer hunters #'s were up, we had alot more deer. Now I understand we have to mgmt to the carrying capacity of the land, but its since become more then that. Its about crop lands damage, auto-deer accidents. The lack of deer, and large bucks has caused hunters in this state to buy, lease, and post lands for their own private use to manage their own herds for that lifetime trophy. I know for a fact two large companys in this state that lease lands for hunting rights are sold out on leases. All their woods are being leased. Just like Yox wrote private, posted, and unhunted lands are harbouring alot of deer, that are being accounted for in the overall population. Deer that can't be harvested. Deer that regulate how many permits will be issued to each DMU. So how can the DEC even possibly mgmt this herd correctly. Thats where the problem is private, posted, unhuntable lands harbouring deer. To help solve this issue the DEC needs to consider such things as tax breaks for private land owners opening their land to hunting. Going to a full QDM program to grow larger bucks, and develope a healthier herd. The move towards 2 DMU's being antlered restricted is the first step, but it should've been done yrs ago. I was learning about QDM 20yrs ago in college, but yet its the private owners that are practicing QDM, planting food plots, making antler restrictions in their hunting groups. Not our fabulous DEC. Its time this state WOKE UP! A 7 day doe only, DMP tag only ml season in the middle of archery is hardly the answer. Why is it being proposed in the middle of Oct., and archery season? Becasue thats the soonest the DEC proclaims they can issue DMP's for the upcoming season, even with the computer license system upgrade. More b.s. Too much B.S. ,I'm tired of the B.S., period!