NY Bowhunters proposal
#51
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Caledonia, NY
Posts: 773
RE: NY Bowhunters proposal
I bet the article you are talking about is from the AP. I saw that this past weekend when it was wrote before being edited.
Those numbers are a joke. The person that wrote it lives in NYC, and can bet you that it was a canned article.
The numbers dont state whether or not they include state and non state tags. I bet one includes the non state (1999 or 2000 was the year they mentioned I believe), and the later one did not.
As a writer, I know the tricks of the trade, especially when it comes from the AP on issues like this where they do not put effort into. Normally, the AP does a good job on things they know.
Those numbers are a joke. The person that wrote it lives in NYC, and can bet you that it was a canned article.
The numbers dont state whether or not they include state and non state tags. I bet one includes the non state (1999 or 2000 was the year they mentioned I believe), and the later one did not.
As a writer, I know the tricks of the trade, especially when it comes from the AP on issues like this where they do not put effort into. Normally, the AP does a good job on things they know.
#52
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Caledonia, NY
Posts: 773
RE: NY Bowhunters proposal
Oh, and I can tell you the ONLY thing that the DEC may not do is the MZ season where they offered it. It may get moved, but unlikely.
There is a 50/50 chance on the MZ aspect. Everything, else....done deal. I could have told you that way beforehand.
There is a 50/50 chance on the MZ aspect. Everything, else....done deal. I could have told you that way beforehand.
#53
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Brockport, NY
Posts: 613
RE: NY Bowhunters proposal
I too know all too well about how articles begin and end. But, like I had said earlier, the DEC also said tonight, the hunter numbers are down. Deer take, down. Like I say, Im in the usage business, I know whats out there. They say numbers dont lie, but thats if you believe you are seeing real numbers. Hell, we listened to guys squawk tonight about fawn skulls at coyote dens, yet none of those skulls could tell us if the coyotes killed it or found it dead. I dont know, Im starting to think I need to keep my opinions to myself. Im too opinionated!
#54
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Caledonia, NY
Posts: 773
RE: NY Bowhunters proposal
ORIGINAL: Bill Yox
I too know all too well about how articles begin and end. But, like I had said earlier, the DEC also said tonight, the hunter numbers are down. Deer take, down. Like I say, Im in the usage business, I know whats out there. They say numbers dont lie, but thats if you believe you are seeing real numbers. Hell, we listened to guys squawk tonight about fawn skulls at coyote dens, yet none of those skulls could tell us if the coyotes killed it or found it dead. I dont know, Im starting to think I need to keep my opinions to myself. Im too opinionated!
I too know all too well about how articles begin and end. But, like I had said earlier, the DEC also said tonight, the hunter numbers are down. Deer take, down. Like I say, Im in the usage business, I know whats out there. They say numbers dont lie, but thats if you believe you are seeing real numbers. Hell, we listened to guys squawk tonight about fawn skulls at coyote dens, yet none of those skulls could tell us if the coyotes killed it or found it dead. I dont know, Im starting to think I need to keep my opinions to myself. Im too opinionated!
Only a handful of those speakers spoke well enough to try to get their message across.
#55
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Brockport, NY
Posts: 613
RE: NY Bowhunters proposal
Phade, you are dead-on correct. Ive been involved in public speaking, debate and group-setting education for many years, and its all about ones ability to articulate. What I will say, though, is although these guys have no idea about how things like herd dynamics, carrying capacities and state liabilities, for example, might work, they are one thing...passionate. They have an irascible, almost rabid love for hunting, which should also be taken into account. They go with their feelings and leave the DEC to work out the details. But they also dont trust the DEC, and unfortunately the DEC hasnt done much lately to earn back that trust...
#56
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location:
Posts: 24
RE: NY Bowhunters proposal
Number one, adding a ml season in the middle of Bow season for any reason is wrong. I've bow hunted for 35 plus years. I've Bow Hunted in NY, PA, ID, and CO. I've been reading every forum about this topic since the proposal. Alot of good dialog and points. It's not about harvesting more deer as the numbers have been going down the last couple of years. The DEC I'm sure have figured this is a way to raise more MONEY!! Sales of ML's equals more taxes and of coarse more ML tags sold. I've bought a ml tag for years because it gives me an extra tag but haven't hunted with ml for years. If ML season is put in the middle of Archery Season I will PROTEST the DEC by NOT buying A NYS hunting licence for the first time in 45 Years.
#57
RE: NY Bowhunters proposal
Ok, I'm back. Sorry I've been busy catching up on my Taxidermy work. Yox I'm with you in opinion. I too have spoke to other taxidermists, and a couple butchers. The intake #'s are down. I can also agree with Yox's on taxidermists not usually giving out personal info. Reason being taxidermy is a Art. Customers like to take work to ones who get in alot of work, thinking those Taxidermist must be good. Anyways those numbers are down from what I've heard.
Phade you keep telling us of numbers, and facts based on your findings, and talks with DEC personnel. Ok so the survey you showed us was a USA National survey, but I wonder where those numbers came from being DEC based licenses in NY. Use your head there guy! The old paper license system was out of date, and the automated system had alot of flaws starting out. I personally don't believe everything I'm told by government based information. I work in a County position, and I can tell you alot of red tape bull comes out of top heads. Were not suppose to know the TRUE BIG picture, thats government, its crooked all around us.
Also Phade don't know you personally or your experiences. But I can also say I recall when in college, and hunting opening days shotgun in the southern tier. I visited public land hunting spots, and you were lucky you find a darn place just to park. I also recall walking alot farther in than expected just to get by all the hunters, and in a little safer spot. Its not like that these days at all. My present land in Southern tier is bordered by state land. It doesn't see the pressure of old. Hunters numbers are down.
The deer population is also down, and no place will you find a EXACT number on the states deer pop. Yes of course dmp numbers were reduced in 2004, and certainly in 2005. Thats becasue the take was down, becasue the numbers are down. The DEC went too many yrs worrying about over population of deer, and issued double permits in alot of Dmu's for too many yrs. Especially 7M. I've been there. I can also recall hunting around Madison county before doe permits were issued in that area. You'd see 20-30 doe, before you even caught a glimpse of a buck. Then even after permits were issued, and numbers reduced. It was still nothing to see 20-25 deer any opening day. Its most definitly not like that now. My father in law still hunts those same woods. He's told me how few deer he see's there now, and the farm area hasn't changed any.
The hunters are down, the deer are down, and I don't think the DEC has a clue!!!!!!!!
Phade you keep telling us of numbers, and facts based on your findings, and talks with DEC personnel. Ok so the survey you showed us was a USA National survey, but I wonder where those numbers came from being DEC based licenses in NY. Use your head there guy! The old paper license system was out of date, and the automated system had alot of flaws starting out. I personally don't believe everything I'm told by government based information. I work in a County position, and I can tell you alot of red tape bull comes out of top heads. Were not suppose to know the TRUE BIG picture, thats government, its crooked all around us.
Also Phade don't know you personally or your experiences. But I can also say I recall when in college, and hunting opening days shotgun in the southern tier. I visited public land hunting spots, and you were lucky you find a darn place just to park. I also recall walking alot farther in than expected just to get by all the hunters, and in a little safer spot. Its not like that these days at all. My present land in Southern tier is bordered by state land. It doesn't see the pressure of old. Hunters numbers are down.
The deer population is also down, and no place will you find a EXACT number on the states deer pop. Yes of course dmp numbers were reduced in 2004, and certainly in 2005. Thats becasue the take was down, becasue the numbers are down. The DEC went too many yrs worrying about over population of deer, and issued double permits in alot of Dmu's for too many yrs. Especially 7M. I've been there. I can also recall hunting around Madison county before doe permits were issued in that area. You'd see 20-30 doe, before you even caught a glimpse of a buck. Then even after permits were issued, and numbers reduced. It was still nothing to see 20-25 deer any opening day. Its most definitly not like that now. My father in law still hunts those same woods. He's told me how few deer he see's there now, and the farm area hasn't changed any.
The hunters are down, the deer are down, and I don't think the DEC has a clue!!!!!!!!
#58
Typical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Caledonia, NY
Posts: 773
RE: NY Bowhunters proposal
ORIGINAL: BuckAlley
Ok, I'm back. Sorry I've been busy catching up on my Taxidermy work. Yox I'm with you in opinion. I too have spoke to other taxidermists, and a couple butchers. The intake #'s are down. I can also agree with Yox's on taxidermists not usually giving out personal info. Reason being taxidermy is a Art. Customers like to take work to ones who get in alot of work, thinking those Taxidermist must be good. Anyways those numbers are down from what I've heard.
Phade you keep telling us of numbers, and facts based on your findings, and talks with DEC personnel. Ok so the survey you showed us was a USA National survey, but I wonder where those numbers came from being DEC based licenses in NY. Use your head there guy! The old paper license system was out of date, and the automated system had alot of flaws starting out. I personally don't believe everything I'm told by government based information. I work in a County position, and I can tell you alot of red tape bull comes out of top heads. Were not suppose to know the TRUE BIG picture, thats government, its crooked all around us.
Also Phade don't know you personally or your experiences. But I can also say I recall when in college, and hunting opening days shotgun in the southern tier. I visited public land hunting spots, and you were lucky you find a darn place just to park. I also recall walking alot farther in than expected just to get by all the hunters, and in a little safer spot. Its not like that these days at all. My present land in Southern tier is bordered by state land. It doesn't see the pressure of old. Hunters numbers are down.
The deer population is also down, and no place will you find a EXACT number on the states deer pop. Yes of course dmp numbers were reduced in 2004, and certainly in 2005. Thats becasue the take was down, becasue the numbers are down. The DEC went too many yrs worrying about over population of deer, and issued double permits in alot of Dmu's for too many yrs. Especially 7M. I've been there. I can also recall hunting around Madison county before doe permits were issued in that area. You'd see 20-30 doe, before you even caught a glimpse of a buck. Then even after permits were issued, and numbers reduced. It was still nothing to see 20-25 deer any opening day. Its most definitly not like that now. My father in law still hunts those same woods. He's told me how few deer he see's there now, and the farm area hasn't changed any.
The hunters are down, the deer are down, and I don't think the DEC has a clue!!!!!!!!
Ok, I'm back. Sorry I've been busy catching up on my Taxidermy work. Yox I'm with you in opinion. I too have spoke to other taxidermists, and a couple butchers. The intake #'s are down. I can also agree with Yox's on taxidermists not usually giving out personal info. Reason being taxidermy is a Art. Customers like to take work to ones who get in alot of work, thinking those Taxidermist must be good. Anyways those numbers are down from what I've heard.
Phade you keep telling us of numbers, and facts based on your findings, and talks with DEC personnel. Ok so the survey you showed us was a USA National survey, but I wonder where those numbers came from being DEC based licenses in NY. Use your head there guy! The old paper license system was out of date, and the automated system had alot of flaws starting out. I personally don't believe everything I'm told by government based information. I work in a County position, and I can tell you alot of red tape bull comes out of top heads. Were not suppose to know the TRUE BIG picture, thats government, its crooked all around us.
Also Phade don't know you personally or your experiences. But I can also say I recall when in college, and hunting opening days shotgun in the southern tier. I visited public land hunting spots, and you were lucky you find a darn place just to park. I also recall walking alot farther in than expected just to get by all the hunters, and in a little safer spot. Its not like that these days at all. My present land in Southern tier is bordered by state land. It doesn't see the pressure of old. Hunters numbers are down.
The deer population is also down, and no place will you find a EXACT number on the states deer pop. Yes of course dmp numbers were reduced in 2004, and certainly in 2005. Thats becasue the take was down, becasue the numbers are down. The DEC went too many yrs worrying about over population of deer, and issued double permits in alot of Dmu's for too many yrs. Especially 7M. I've been there. I can also recall hunting around Madison county before doe permits were issued in that area. You'd see 20-30 doe, before you even caught a glimpse of a buck. Then even after permits were issued, and numbers reduced. It was still nothing to see 20-25 deer any opening day. Its most definitly not like that now. My father in law still hunts those same woods. He's told me how few deer he see's there now, and the farm area hasn't changed any.
The hunters are down, the deer are down, and I don't think the DEC has a clue!!!!!!!!
But then again, it is a inarguable situation, I think you fit in well with the majority of those attending the DEC deer meetings. Ideas are good, but the reasons behind them lack the semblence of a sound platform.
Yox and I have some differing views, and we can at least recognize the platforms from which we both stand on. We later found out both of us had similar views with minor twists to them.
#59
Nontypical Buck
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Delhi, NY (by way of Chenango Forks)
Posts: 1,706
RE: NY Bowhunters proposal
Oh, and I can tell you the ONLY thing that the DEC may not do is the MZ season where they offered it. It may get moved, but unlikely.
I was hoping to get more input from NYers that attended the meetings, but not doing very well.