germain

I can explain that BT.While the numbers on public land have drastically been reduced,the deer populations continue to grow in populated areas with little or no access.This offsets the low kills in the NC and such.Wasn't too long ago the sw and se part of the state had low deer numbers.Now those herds keep growing.Compare harvest rates by counties in the past and present and you can see the flip flops.The only way they'll get the herd down in these areas is with snipers or birth control.If and when they do you'll see much lower harvests statewide.When the figures come out alot of counties or WMU'S will have record low kills,no doubt.And these will be traditionally high harvest areas with mostly state land where the terrain is more suitable for the white tailed deer compared to the populated areas with houses,highways,and asphalt.
But then we'll here about the health of the forests.Give the oaks light and they will grow.I said it before and I'll say it again,if they're so worried about the maples taking over why are they eliminating the animal that eats them?
Simple,there's more to it then we know.

wingbar

toot - toooot BLAM~!
You know I live here in God's country, I don't drive up down to my son's house in 3D a few weekends a year and try to convince him that there are as many deer in 3D today as there was 5 yrs ago there. Why? Cause he knows better he LIVES there 24/7 365 days a year.

BTBowhunter

Germain, I basically agree with what you said in general. Yes, numbers are down in the traditional big woods counties and yes there are areas where it will take even more drastic measures to slow down the deer pop explosion. But most of all I agree with you on this:

Thats why I'm reluctant to listen to someone here with too little information or to someone who wishes to take figures published by the professionals and let him twist them his own way.

We, as hunters are a small minority here and the sooner we recognize that the deer herd is not ours alone to manage the better off we will be. Yes we fund the PGC but it's the farmers, timber co's and even the state and federal govt that owns the land we hunt on and the land that feeds and shelters the deer. Even the suburbanites who feed deer their shrubbery have something to say here. I wish it wasnt so but it is a fact of life. If we as hunters dont get on board and manage the deer or (any other game for that matter) in balance with the habitat the rest of the world WILL find a way to balance em.

Shouldnt we all be glad that Audobon funded Gary Alt instead of putting the money into deer contaceptive research or some other wacko scheme?

As I see it, the deer herd will get reduced. we can either embrace it and be a useful part of that or we can get steamrolled by resisting. Dont think it cant happen!

deaddeer

The train wreck may not have come to the are where you hunt , but it has occurred in many other areas. When are you going to address the issues I raised in my previous post or are you going to tryy to ignore them because you have no rational response.

You are still in denial and refuse to dmit Alt's plan has failed. At least he was smart enough to admit he was ineffective and failed to accomplish his goal. He was appointed to reduce the OWDD by 50% but intead he only decreased the buck harvest by 30% while the OWDD continued to increase.

BTBowhunter

You are right, I have no rational response to your claim that the total kill has no meaning. The is no rational response because the claim makes no sense. Again, we've been hearing the claim that the deer will be wiped out ever since the bonus tags came out years ago. Yes, the numbers will decline and level off where HR is working. Yes, more drastic measure may be needed where it isnt working. Guess what? Gary Alt said all that 5 years ago!

wingbar

Dead: don't waste your breath there will always be some (thank God they are in the minority) that just can't understand hunters in Pa just aren't interested in the kind of racks they watch getting killed from DBL Bull blinds in Ks at the expense of seeing deer in Pa.
IMHO they spend way too much time watching The Outdoor Channel and have lost sight of reality.
Pa is steeped in tradition when it comes to deer hunting, and the MAJORITY of hunters what to keep it that way.

deaddeer

I challenge you to find one quote from Alt where he said harvests would decline. What he said was ,we would have more and bigger buck than ever before in PA, hunting would be better than ever, AR would double the number of 8 + pt buck and the buck harvests would return to normal after 1 year of AR.

It would be obvious to anyone with the intellectual capacity of a high school senior, that reducing the herd means that one has to harvest more deer than are recruited into the herd each year. That means that the anterless harvest will remoan high for several years until enough adult doe are removed to reach the OWDD goal of 12 DPSM. Since in 2003 we had 1.1M OWD , that means we have to harvest an additional 550K anterless deer ,above the yearly net fawn recruitment in order to reach the goal, That is why the anterless harvest and total harvest will remain high for several more years .But I know that is beyond your level of comprehension and you will reject it because it simply doesn't agree with what you think should happen.

germain

BT,I agree the herd needed reduced and still does in some areas.Back in the 80,s an average day produced about 50 deer sightings.While I agree that was too many for the big woods habitat I also think seeing one deer a day or none has gone to the extreme.The habitat can support more deer then that.In other words,let's balance the management with all involved including us hunters.Without using the same old boring numbers we've been looking at the past two years let's put it in a hunter's perspective.After the bonus tags were introduced and her reduction started taking effect,our sightings decreased to about 10-12 deer a day.I can live with that,a good huntable number.One or no deer a day is not.And these are the conditions alot of hunters are hunting under.I ask the people who support Alt?Can you honestly say you'd be happy with seeing maybe one deer in a full day's hunt?
Now some are saying the people who are complaining don't know how to hunt or need to move.Come on,we're talking about the PA big woods where folks have cabins for generations.As for the not knowing how to hunt theory?I have plenty of experience and buck kills to debate that.{not intended for you bt}
Can't they find a common goal between the hunters and others?After all we lead the pack in money spent in conservation.I didn't hear many people complaining when those numbers of sightings dropped to 10-12 a day.A few but not like now.There's obviously a serious problem and these people are simply very concerned sportsmen and women who are passionate about their sport.
I see hunters calling other hunters whiners and troublemakers.I guess it's all in how the fellow sportsmen look at them.Maybe instead of calling them selfish,they can feel bad for the situation they're in and help find a common goal.
I see where 902 gets on people pretty hard likes it's personal.I could choose to think of 902 for being selfish and not care about the situation alot of hunters are in,but I won't.I'd rather believe he's a fellow that cares about the forest and truly thinks it's for the best.And there's nothing wrong with that but listen to what the other side is saying let's work together and find a balance.I really think we can do that.But we have to care about the sportsmen on the other side of the state too.Listen to what people are saying,there's very few deer.And in most of the state land I'm familar with,there's too few.There's been an overharvest and the PGC isn't doing anything to adress that problem.

germain

BT,I have to disagree with you saying we should be glad audobon put monies toward the deer studies.
Their interest is bird watching and mine is hunting.

wingbar

the only bird I want to see is the one I'm flipping at the Audubon flower sniffers whom tell me there are too many deer cause they can't find a Ginseng root to suck on!