Buck Magnet

All I have been hearing for the past several days is "the deer in PA are gone" and "there are no deer left in PA".

I have seen less deer, but I am still seeing plenty of deer! Everyone that I have personally talked to has seen plenty of deer, and it seems as though the size (body weight) of all deer is up this year, along with bigger antlers on bucks!

Now, lets discuss why Pennsylvania needed the deer herd reduced! It seems to me that most hunters think that PA put in antler restrictions and increased doe tags in order to grow bigger antlered bucks! This isn't true. I will admit that it was a tool used to get hunters to agree to the new program, but this isn't the focusing point! Several years ago, our deer population was way too high! This put pressure on deer and there was more competition for food! Deer weren't the only creatures that felt this pressure, every animal in PA felt the effects of the over-population. There was just less food for every animal! Now lets talk about plants! The deer herd was over-browseing and the wild plants were taking a pounding! The deer herd actually wiped out several plants in this state that will never be back!

Also, our deer herd was and still is entirely dependant on crops! Reducing the overall herd size will make the deer less dependant on crops! Think about this, what would happen if the large farms around your hunting property didn't plant any crops for one year, what would happen to the deer?

I think that hunting shows and hunting movies have put it into everyones heads that places like Canada, Iowa, Illinois, and Kansas have tons of deer with huge racks running around! These states have smaller deer density than PA. For instance, I read somewhere that Canada has deer densitys of 5-10 deer per square mile and I have read as low as 1-2 deer per square mile in certain spots.

We can't have the woods packed with deer and have healthier deer! This just can't happen in PA! I love going out in the woods and seeing tons of deer, I remember 5 years ago when I could go out on the first day of rifle season and I would see 70 deer that day, but then again, a big buck to me back then was a 100" 8 point!

Also, I wonder how many people have been seeing good buck to doe ratio's in their areas! I know that around here, the buck to doe ratio is probablly 1-2 or 1-3! There was actually a rut this year and I saw bucks fighting that looked like they were from South Texas.

Along with that, I know of 3 different bucks shot in PA this year that were over 20 scoreable points! There was a 23-1/4" wide 14 point shot right on the outskirts of my town. About 15 miles from my house, a 176" 15 point (7X7 frame with a 9" drop) was shot on the first day of rifle, and the average buck that hunters are harvesting is definetly much bigger.

I will agree that there are ways to improve this management program. I still think that we need smaller WMU's. Pennsylvania has such a diverse terrain and the deer population varies greatly from county to county! But, as I have seen, the program is working, and working well. Bigger/healthier deer that aren't going to be as dependant on crops and won't have as hard of a time finding food this winter!

To prove my point about bigger body deer, here is the doe I shot this year along with my best-friends buck!



Here is my best-friends buck! We have been watching this buck for a couple years and we decided this year that he needed to be taken. He is 3-1/2 years old and should have a bigger rack. This buck weighed in at 186# which is after capeing the deer out, removing the head, and being gutted! His live weight was estimated over the 250 pound mark!



Finally, the one major thing that I have noticed this year is that deer aren't bedding where they normally do. The places where I have been seeing the most deer this past week are spots that you wouldn't ever imagine! I kicked 3 bucks and 2 doe out of a patch of golden rods about 15 yards wide and 20 yards long that was literally right off the side of the road and it was surrounded by cut cornfields! Also, they have been bedding in shrubs beside peoples houses and other places where they are pretty much impossible to get to!

deaddeer

The fact is there would be just as many deer if not more ,if farmers didn't plant crops. The fact is the majority of our deer depend very little on crops like corn and wheat for survival. Even the PGC assigns no habitat value to cropland ,abandoned farmland or relaimed strip mines. They only consider forested habitat as suitable for deer..


The B/D ratio before AR was implemented was 1:2.1 and that is what it should be in a heavily hunted herd.

PABuck_HNTR

BM... You certainly have a right to an opinion and some of what you say makes sense, but if hunters in Pennsylvania expect to see more deer than they are now it is their right too. Afterall Hunters are paying the bills at the PGC. Maybe it is time for Alt and his crew to make another statewide tour and talk with the hunters again about their concerns. Many on this board who have said that Pa has many different types of terrain and each holds deer differently. If your hunting in an agricultural area its obvious that the deer are going to be larger, but if your hunting in National Forests the needs of deer are different. This is what needs to be discussed. The state needs to examine how to remove some of the old large trees in some areas to allow sunlight to get in and let plants grow better.I'm not talking about clear-cutting just carefully managed select removal. Trees are a renewable resource.I've seen large numbers of deer in areas that have been logged a year or so before. Of course the tree huggers won't like that idea, but they don't pay the bills. And neither do the insurance companies. We pay them premiums to fix our cars if we hit a deer. They also are influencing some of these rule changes and we as hunters have every right to bitch about it. If the insurance companies and tree huggers want a say in Pennsylvanias deer population then let them start sending some money to buy land and or help the real conservationists us HUNTERS do real consevation. I'm sick of these so-called conservation groups whining about everthing and not doing a damn thing for conservation.

cardeer

The state is to big to manage like it is one big farm. I hunted 44 years and dont expect to get a deer every trip. But reallY now 256 hours I spent in 3 different spots so far and seen 17 deer. People say move to another spot.I ask you where?? What must one do ? move sell and resell there property to follow the herd??? The hunter is not being represented by the comissioners they care more about trees then deer.They make more money off the trees. If they want to be forrest rangers then change professions. Why cant we as hunters vote on changes ??? or at least vote for the comisssioners. I know I'm going to get grief from some.But Crops do make a difference. Just put out 1 acre of oak trees and 1 acre of corn,soybeans alphalfa,or biologic and see where the deer go first. Most the big bucks are shot around the burbs areas mixed with farms. I realize upstate is hilly and rocky. But if the state is going to sell the timber ,why cant for every 50 acres sold 5 acres can be put in to crops where possible.They do it in other states. They did it in our state in some public lands and stopped.Why they were loosiing the timber revenue they were lining there pockets with. And why dont the hunters with property plant crops ?? Cheap I quess. Heck I tore up my back yard ,after a considerably argument with the wife and spent my car insurance payment for my chevelle to plant food for the deer. Not to shoot them ,but to GIVE back to the system.THATS THE ANSWER WE AS HUNTERS MUST GIVE,GIVE, GIVE BACK. buck magnet I would guess you have agriculture in your area?Good if you do and have fun and I hope your area stays good. I just wish I had the political clout to start a organization to gather hundreds of thousands of hunters in pa not to even purchase a doe tag next year.But that is not feesible. heck we cant even get along on a board. I tell you what I'm going to throw a party for all of us f I ever come up with enough money to get out of this stupid state. I was born and raised here ,but lived other places. I know how much better it can be.Including cheaper living, lower taxes, .I just get tired of people complaining also and doing nothing. I do what I can. And I just burned my doe tags and tore up my yard . Especially here in SE Pa these people still think the earth is flat. AND EVERYBODY SAID.GEE I'M GLAD HE IS DONE AND WHEN YOU MOVE DONT LET THE DOOR HIT YOU IN THE BUTT. PEACE

mounting man

And you called me an old hippie!!!!!!!!BURNED YOUR DOE LICENCE!!!!!LMASO.
PEACE AND LOVE,BROTHER.

rybohunter

Although PA has a TON of whiny hunters, I've also learned that some of them have a point. Many places of this state are far from the Rosey picture you've painted BM. Places like you and I hunt cannot even be remotely compared to the pounding that goes on in many of the public land areas. Yes in a lot of areas the deer needed thinned, but not exterminated. There is also a lot more that could be done (logging) that would benefit the deer and the forests. The only reason deer depend on crops is becuase they are there. Its not because there is nothing else to eat(except maybe in real poor mast years) Deer in my area aren't any bigger body wise than they were before. Yea some of the bucks are able to get older and bigger, but the year and a halfers are still the same size. You've got a dream area to hunt as far as PA goes, hold on to it, but also realize it is FAR from the average hunting spot here in PA.

Pa Trophy Man

They can't just use one plan for a state this big and this diverse. Some places they were (still are) extremely over populated. While in other areas it seems as if they have literally "dissappeared" all together. I'm by now means complaining, i just think they need to do something adressing public and private land in a different fashion. I would like to see it go back, to everyone only being allowed one doe tag, at least for a few years so the doe have a chance to rebound a bit. The state is just to big to follow one given set of rules-- we need statewide micro-management whether that be by county or WMU, something needs to be done.

Kyle3

Amen Rybo.... I agree totally with what you are saying. I hunt in Bradford county, in the northern tier of the state. Our property borders state gamelands and our deer herd is a solid 8-10 miles from the nearest planted field. This year was the worst year we have ever seen hunting in PA. Do we have a right to complain I believe we do. We are the ones who pay for the liscenses and care about the wildlife. We as serious hunters don't expect to shoot a deer each and every time we go out in the woods. But for people to hunt all week or go days on end without seeing a deer, there seems to be a problem. And no we might not be as accomplished hunters and all that garbage some may think. We have taken our fair share of deer off the land we hunt. We as hunters put in the time and the desire to atleast see game we are persuing. The habitat and herd are completely different where each and everyone hunts. But to say PA hunters complain too much, I find that as quite harsh. BM you are more then welcome to come hunt our property, why you would I am not sure, but I think if you went a week without seeing a deer like many hunters near our camp or in our camp have then you would be quite miserable to. The problem of not seeing any deer takes on many spectrums as well. What about in recruitment of younger hunters? As we all know we need younger hunters to keep our sport alive, but when you have a younger hunter freezing in a tree stand or out in the woods and not evening getting a glimpse of the animal they are persuing then this puts a negative light on hunting as well. At our camp our deer don't eat crops, nor the insurance companies should care because it is hard to hit deer on winding dirt roads with ones car. THe herd in PA needs to be micromanaged, we can't continue at his rate, or the tradition of going to deer camp will slowly die with our hunting tradtion. Why should we head up to the mountains to hunt deer when we don't see any compared to the ones we see eating outa our neighbors birdfeeders in suberbia. Even if you don't realize it I am sorry some hunters do have a right to complain. BM even if you don't see it, the system is not working for most of us. You can say hunt harder or you don't have the skills to hunt deer like the people that are seeing deer, but I think it is time for Gary Alt to look into this program in all spectrums. A simple way to start the fix I feel is seperate private and public land tags for each WMU. How much extra cost would this bring to the Game Commission, I doubt a lot but that would begin the process of micromanaging our deer herd. Sorry to sound like "another complaining PA hunter" but I think the PA herd or PA hunting conditions aren't what people see in their personal honeyhole but you have to step back and look at the big picture.

chickory

People who are in a wmu is that is over its population goal will think that everyone else is whiny and that if they see deer then everyone in pa must! What a hoot...

If they are really seeing wonderfull things, then why do they feel they need to post a 'put down' of thier fellow hunters?!? If they love the current results why take the time to chastise fellow sportsman who are not seeing as good of results?

I think the only reason they are lashing out at fellow hunters is out of ignorance. They see good things in thier backyard and just do not have to be nice those who have felt the crunch of herd reductions. No empathy or care because they are still doing ok so the heck with anyone else in pa.

They are the shallow end of the hunting gene pool.

Not everyone will enjoy the smaller herd with less and less deer available. We all knew that from the start, and if you can't handle people who have a different opinion than you.......then maybe you are the one who is doing too much unjustified complaining.

And complaining about your fellow hunters is about the weasely-ist complaining of all....

Pa.Frank

Buck Magnet, I couldn't agree more with you. I hunt both end of the state with significantly different terains and habitats. Where I hunt in McKean County, there are mostly Cherry trees with some ash and beech. I haven't seen an oak tree in 2 years. I also saw very few deer out ther and those that I did were small. There is very little browse, except in clear cut areas (which are pretty much impenetrable by people) and even with the reduced herd they still seem to be exceeding the carrying capacity of the land.

Monroe county on the other hand, has a ridiculous amount of deer. Small ones, but many. I tagged an 8 point 115 pounder during archery, and observed over 20 different does and yearlings, but when I showed up for gun season, they were apparantly gone.

There are two major factors for this this year. There was a poor mast crop this year, and much of it was blown down in the aftermath of the hurricane this summer. This forced the deer to seek food elsewhere. The second was the full moon. The deer are at the midnight buffet during the full moon and you have to almost step on them during the day to get them moving.

I also observed in both counties that there was very little for the deer to eat in the woods. Take a walk in the woods in late spring in an oak forrest and tell me how many oak saplings you see. There ain't any! They become deer salad before they get a foot tall!

In my opinion, we haven't killed off enough deer, and need further herd reductions througout the state to allow the forrests time to regenerate.

IMHO, you will have to really work for your deer in the future but the habitat and herd will be better of for it and if the crybaby lazy hunters really want to improve the hunting in Pa, then plant an oak tree!!!