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RE: DEC has it figured out!!
Ken Wasn't sure your post was to me. I wasn't trying to challange you - was simply citing my observations in the 3 or 4 mile radius around me. I listed the roads and route I drove tonight. For you, go south on East Lake to Rockefeller - east on Riley, Hall or Durea to Oak Hill and do block grids. If you would like more detailed directions, then let me know. Ease up Let me ask you this as an Auburn area hunter............. Are there the same amount of deer around in the last 2 years as say 7- 10 years ago?? |
RE: DEC has it figured out!!
Ken
Whats with the "Elvis" crack. All I did was share my sightings from the last couple days. Gave pretty good directions to where I saw them. These are traditional drive by areas for many locals who like to see deer. Not sure why I deserve your sarcasm. The deer are there.Do the drive a couple times near dusk on a mild weather day and see for yourself. If you see nothing then critisize me. Until then, please don't act as if I am intentionally trying to mislead anyone. Thanks Steve |
RE: DEC has it figured out!!
Oh I do have to ask you one thing first though... have you ever played ice hockey at the rink next to the airport in Albany? Sorry if that's an odd question, but I noticed on the Offseason forum that you play or at least used too, and I also saw your pic over there, and well... you look a whole lot like a guy that I uh... had a bit of an on ice disagreement with once... Probably wasn't you but I'd rather not have any nasty surprises... Listen fellas no hard feelings here. I know we disagree on some things. When it comes down to it I simply want the absolute best hunting for our state. I have 3 boys and I want deer hunting and populations to be thriving for them when they are old enough to hunt. I want them to able to get enthused about the sport. I just notice some differences over the last 3 years. You can argue with me until the cows come home but something is different in the herd around the area I hunt. I know what I know!!! I've been doing this for enough years to notice something is on the downward trend here. Maybe it's a fluke maybe it's my littel segregated area of my personal hunting world?? I dunno but I will swear on my set of golf clubs that the herd/population of deer around my neck of the woods have changed. Nothing else has changed in the years I've been there (food, habbitat, etc.........) Let's get one more thing straight here. I'm not crying the blues here. I am, but not in the sense you think. I will keep on getting on. No matter how much I bitch and moan about the situation, I don't just go pout in the corner someplace. In fact it drives me more to be succesful. So I'm not the kind of guy who's sitting here stomping my feet with a spoiled look on my face. I'll do what I have to do to get it done. I'm just a little peeved about what I perceive as a downfall in the deer population in my area. |
RE: DEC has it figured out!!
mistake
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RE: DEC has it figured out!!
Ken Whats with the "Elvis" crack. All I did was share my sightings from the last couple days. Gave pretty good directions to where I saw them. These are traditional drive by areas for many locals who like to see deer. Not sure why I deserve your sarcasm. |
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RE: DEC has it figured out!!
Ken
No problem We are about a post behind eac other and I just got kicked off - tough way to communicate. I don't doubt at all things are different north of me around you. And I share your concern for the future. Let's get together for a 3d or coffee sometime. Take care Steve |
RE: DEC has it figured out!!
Well there was a time when one meant more than the others, but now times have changed and the others mean more than the one.
Wow was that profound or what?? LMBO I think I'm the closest thing to Happy Gilmoure there is.[:-] |
RE: DEC has it figured out!!
ORIGINAL: alloutdoors If your willing to drive a half hour south from Auburn I can put you onto a load of deer. I see them in the fields around Auburn too, don't get me wrong, but if you want to come down here I can show you where to go to see both quantity and quality, and I guarantee you will have access to hunt them in the fall. Send me an email. |
RE: DEC has it figured out!!
ORIGINAL: SteveBNy Atlasman Sent you an email Steve Steve, I did not get your email. |
RE: DEC has it figured out!!
ORIGINAL: alloutdoors Atlas I've been bending over backwards to answer all of your questions, you just don't like the answers so you choose to ignore them. As far as poor counting, don't even try and squirm out from under that one. You say the herd is dangerously low, the DEC on the other hand has been saying it is too high, and has finally started making some gains in reducing it the last couple years. Sounds like a counting discrepency to me. On top of that, every key issue involved in a proper management plan is going to revolve around establishing an accurate count. You can't make any management decisions without knowing how many deer are out there. Whatever the answer is it needs to be fixed. Secondly, most of what I have been doing is explaining why I believe the DEC's numbers. You just don't want to hear the reasons. Their numbers are grounded in proven scientific methods. I have explained the how's and why's of those methods repeatedly. I have firsthand experience with the technique, I know it works. So don't give me any BS about not explaining why I believe their numbers. I don't really know why you are so dismissive of the experience of hunters........especially guys like the ones on these boards who spend a great deal of time and effort into their hunting. Weekend warriors popping six packs and sleeping till 10 o'clock and back in the cabin by 1 is one thing but when you have people that show dedication and a solid knowledge of the woods they are in is another. I know it's easy to get a cynical attitude when you have some experiences with a bunch of buttheads but there are hunters out there that know what they are talking about and can offer valuable opinions and help the DEC do a better job.......if only they would listen. And lastly, the challenge that I proposed to you requires no special tools at all. You can do a decent job of coming up with all of that data with things that you already have in your possession. The only "special" tool you might need to pick up is a decent spotlight, and maybe you've got one of those already too. As far as the amount of time it would take (let's assume we are talking about a piece of land thats between 5 and 10 thousand acres), I know that I could personally tackle that on my own in about 1-2 months, working only on the weekends. Now from the sounds of it you hunt quite a bit more land than that, but if you can come up with some numbers on several thousand acres that will give a good starting point. So... if you spent even half the time on gathering some data as what you spend sitting at your computer ranting about the DEC, you could probably wrap the whole thing up in about 48 hrs. :D Ok, maybe not, but it is certainly within the realm of possibility that you could answer those questions. Really we would have something to work with if you just got us some actual deer density numbers, and if your interested I can tell you how to get that done in about five nights worth of work. I just can't do it..........so I depend on the DEC to do it. After all it is THEIR job. I do mine and expect them to do theirs. All I am asking is that you consider changing your attitude that everything the DEC says is wrong. What would you say if I invited you over to 100 acres of my land and told you that their were TONS of deer in there........in fact their are so many that I am worried they may be overpopulated and damaging the forest with over browsing. I want you to go in there and kill as many as you can........PLEASE do me a favor and don't stop shooting until we reduce those numbers. Now you scout the area and see some deer sign and figure out movement patterns and feeding and bedding areas and you place a few stands that will help you hunt the wind and different locations for morning and afternoons. You are all fired up and you pull up your bow and settle in for the stampede to begin..........a week later you haven't even seen a deer. You notice no deer in the fields as you arive or leave. A few days later you see a doe and a spike in the distance but that is all you see in two weeks of steady hunting. What would you say to me?? You would say dude.......I thought you said there were deer all over this place?? Now picture your reaction if I came back with "Man the deer in there are so dense that they are almost out of control...TRUST ME MAN, get back in there and whack 4 or 5 and call me to help you drag 'em. Day after day and week after week.........how long would you continue to hunt that area before you said to yourself "This guy either doesn't know what the hell he is talking about or he is lying to me for some reason" ??? |
RE: DEC has it figured out!!
ORIGINAL: dvdegeorge I'm guessing you are a child  Atlasman you are mad at the world Sorry you feel this way but CHILL we are all friendly here and on the same team;)
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RE: DEC has it figured out!!
ORIGINAL: doughboysigep I think the real problem is regional like someone else suggested. It is probably a difficult task to segrate each county with different management practices, but my God the areas that are not as dense as others could be a huge discrepancy!! It seems to me like they are taking the overpopulated regions and implementing management practices based on controlling those. Well what about the zones that are not as dense or struggling with their deer herd?? What happens to that population? It suffers in accordance with a blanket management program geared towards managing over populated areas. So basically they bring the numbers to an acceptable level in dense areas and mutilate the population in areas that are currentely struggling with the herd. Why cant' the bring balance to all zones involved?? I'm not sure if this is what you were talking about, but thought i'd mention it anyway. Did you see the list last year??? OMG!! Practically every zone out there was HIGH-HIGH. I did see some restricted but very few. All the zones I hunted were HIGH-HIGH and that is sad if they consider those areas ones that need the most tags filled as possible. I would hate to see what it's like in the restricted zones [:o][:'(]:( |
RE: DEC has it figured out!!
Atlasman, you must be very sore and tired carrying that big chip around.:("And who be it a child but one who can not listen to reason"
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RE: DEC has it figured out!!
alloutdoors,very eloquently stated.You have made your points and backed them with fact and have tried to stay civil and reasonable in this debate,it comes through in your posts.
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RE: DEC has it figured out!!
Hey, maybe we should all meet up at my place in Stueben County, Help lower the population down here,:D. LOL I know this nice little place opens at 3:00am for breakfeast on opening day,:D
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RE: DEC has it figured out!!
Hey, maybe we should all meet up at my place in Stueben County, Help lower the population down here, . LOL I know this nice little place opens at 3:00am for breakfeast on opening day, |
RE: DEC has it figured out!!
NYBH, I have a couple stands you might want to try out.:D
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RE: DEC has it figured out!!
I'm there brother!! I'll be glad to trade some turkeys for deer anytime!:D Funny thing on the way to the golf course this morning I got pissed at outdoors. I saw more deer this morning than I think I saw in the last 2 seasons lol.;)
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RE: DEC has it figured out!!
NY Bowhunter
Sent some of ours north today:) Later Steve |
RE: DEC has it figured out!!
ORIGINAL: dvdegeorge Atlasman, you must be very sore and tired carrying that big chip around |
RE: DEC has it figured out!!
ORIGINAL: alloutdoors Atlas, just wondering since you hunt on so much public land... how would you gauge the number of hunters on state lands today as compared to in the past? When I've hunted state land in the southern tier before it's seemed like there is some heavy pressure, but I don't know how it compares to in the past. All I know is that deer aren't stupid, once the orange army hits the state lands they know it's time to keep a low profile. You still seem to think that I simply disregard your opinion because you are, in your words, "a lowly uneducated hunter". That really is not the case at all. At the same time I can't just simply take your word as fact just because you want me to, either. Even though you may believe with every fiber of your being that you are right, that doesn't necessarily mean that you are. There are too many variables that could be affecting what you are seeing in the woods. For one thing, I don't know you from a hill of beans, how do I know that you aren't one of those weekend warriors that you just mentioned? Put yourself in the DEC's place for a minute, there are some 650,000 deer hunters in NY, and each one has an opinion. No matter what the DEC does, some people will be happy and some people will be pissed off. The DEC can't keep changing the way they do business everytime someone has a bad opinion of what they are doing, it's just not possible because someone is always going to be unhappy. Cater to the masses...........simple math. I have never said that no hunter has a valuable opinion to offer... but at the same time the attitude that I seemed to be getting from you was that when someone who has 20 years in the woods under their belt tells me what's what, that I better just sit down and regard it as gospel truth. Maybe that's not what you were trying to say but it sure sounded like it when you started rattling off all the years you and your friends and family have spent hunting. I mean sure, with that much experience in the woods you probably do know a thing or two, but at the same time there is no guarantee of that, not for someone that doesn't know you anyway. |
RE: DEC has it figured out!!
Hey NYBowhunter, I'd love to get back up that way hunting some toms, heck Auburn isn't but an hour from here, (Elmira) I used to hunt around that way, Cato, Hannibal, I graduated from Moravia High school, so I would feel right at home.. I saw some good spots for deer this morning hung a stand I think it's got your name on it;)
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RE: DEC has it figured out!!
ORIGINAL: alloutdoors Oops I forgot to mention last years list... some of what was on the list was a misprint. Not sure how it happened or why, and I'm not sure how many zones were labeled wrong, all I know is one of the biologists looked at the list when it came out and was like "WTF". Anyway, even though the list might have said HIGH,HIGH if it was supposed to be say HIGH,MED then that is how it was treated when the tags were allocated. So no extra tags were given out because of the misprint. :eek: Well, I don't know anybody that didn't get 2 doe tags last year....or the year before.....or the year before. |
RE: DEC has it figured out!!
ORIGINAL: alloutdoors Dang it! I forgot something else... your 100 acre wood... BTW why isn't Tigger keeping the deer pop. down for you? Lousy excuse for a predator that cat is... Huh??? Anyway, simple answer, if you told me there were that many deer I would expect to see the signs of the overbrowsing and other deer related damage. If I saw that, I would be confident the deer were there and if I wasn't seeing them I would try to figure out what the hell I was doing wrong. The fact is I don't always need to see the actual deer to know that they are there, not when they leave their calling card plain as day. And from my experience, you can find those calling cards in the places that the DEC says have a lot of deer. So you would hunt a plot of land for weeks straight without seeing a single deer and still believe it is full of whitetails?? There are a lot of variables that could prevent you from seeing deer, even though they may be in the area. That would be a lot more exceptable if the process was a more sudden drop off........WOW all he sudden there are not many deer around. Then something has changed..........but a gradual erosion of numbers when the surrounding enviornment remains unchanged is just not the same situation. There is plenty of food to sustain the deer......in fact I would say more then years ago. There is no doubt in my mind that the deer just aren't there in the numbers they used to be. We know just about every truck on every road for a couple miles from being there so many years and no one is seeing them..........even if some were seeing them and others not I would say it could be anything. With no one seeing them like we used to there is only one explanation that comes to mind.........and it isn't that every deer figured out how to avoid the hunters. |
RE: DEC has it figured out!!
Atlas, Where is it you hunt again?
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RE: DEC has it figured out!!
DB - you get more and more childish with ever post I am deeply, deeply sorry for being so foolish. i should have known better that to use sarcasm, because no one else on the board does! by the way, still seems that there are plenty of deer in your area (??) - 3 people say yeah, only one says neah?? (small sample size but.....) |
RE: DEC has it figured out!!
Well, I don't know anybody that didn't get 2 doe tags last year....or the year before.....or the year before. go ahead, quote this up and pick it apart |
RE: DEC has it figured out!!
Hey,Doughboysigep,I'm a child too!!!Wanna go outside and play
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RE: DEC has it figured out!!
ORIGINAL: Charlie P Atlas, Where is it you hunt again? Cattaragus, Erie, Wyoming, Allegheny counties mostly with an occasional day here and there at local farms, some suburbs etc. |
RE: DEC has it figured out!!
ORIGINAL: alloutdoors Ok, I have another question for you... what does it usually sound like on opening day of gun season where you are hunting? If you say there is silence I'm gonna have to come see it for myself. Most places, opening day sounds like the start of a small war. Unless people are getting bored and shooting at each other :eek:... I'm thinking that at least somebody is seeing some deer. This last year I heard fewer then 10 shots on opening day...........It was dreadful. There were a bunch of guys out this year too. Most of them packed up in disgust and were elsewhere by lunch time. When I say 10 shots I am talking within respectable range. Shots can be heard way off in the distance but those could be miles away so I just consider the ones close by. I can remember many days that were like all hell breaking loose and some relatively quiet ones too........but nothing like what we saw last year. |
RE: DEC has it figured out!!
ORIGINAL: doughboysigep Well, I don't know anybody that didn't get 2 doe tags last year....or the year before.....or the year before. I don't know what goes on in zone 7 whatever......I can't keep track of every zone in the state. If they are managing your zones well then good for you...........but try and use the same logic you whine at others to use. Don't assume the "facts" from your zone translate to the whole state. I am utterly amazed when people make the argument that someone should not complain about what happens locally because it doesn't apply everywhere...........they then try and prove that point by telling you what goes on locally by them Do you even read what you type before sending it out?? I guess a small sample is only proper to use if it proves YOUR point. go ahead, quote this up and pick it apart |
RE: DEC has it figured out!!
ORIGINAL: dvdegeorge Hey,Doughboysigep,I'm a child too!!!Wanna go outside and play
Ewwwwwww [:'(] |
RE: DEC has it figured out!!
ORIGINAL: alloutdoors If your willing to drive a half hour south from Auburn I can put you onto a load of deer. I see them in the fields around Auburn too, don't get me wrong, but if you want to come down here I can show you where to go to see both quantity and quality, and I guarantee you will have access to hunt them in the fall. I'm listening. |
RE: DEC has it figured out!!
What the hell does that even mean?? I am talking about the zones that I hunt where EVERYBODY gets 2 tags EVERY year if you said that there would not have been any misunderstanding. I will grant you that I may have read inferred something that wasn't there, but you also didn't make it exactly clear, either. Don't assume the "facts" from your zone translate to the whole state. |
RE: DEC has it figured out!!
Happy easter everyone,has anyone else notice they don't see the easter bunny as much as they used too in their DMU
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