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DEC has it figured out!!
You HAVE to be joking me!!!!!![:@][:@] What plantet are these people from?? I'm sure this will grow the herd back. I give up I'm moving.[:@]
Year-Round Deer Hunting Proposed Last Update: 3/31/2004 6:57:29 AM (Albany, NY) AP 03/31/04 -- A legislative proposal would allow year-round deer hunting on New York farmland to reduce crop damage from foraging deer. A Cornell University study estimates that deer do some $58 million in damage annually to New York crops. Assemblyman Clifford Crouch says current state programs to shoot deer on farmland are not adequate to prevent significant losses caused by the animals. According to the Cornell study, hay, alfalfa and grain crops are most susceptible to deer damage. The animals also damage nursery products and fruit trees. Farmers reported the worst damage on Long Island and in the lower Hudson Valley. Michael Markarian of the Fund for Animals says many states are liberalizing hunting rules to try to reduce deer herds. But he says the efforts often backfire because deer respond by increasing their reproduction rate. Markarian's group favors non-hunting means of keeping deer away from crops, such as fencing and repellants. |
RE: DEC has it figured out!!
Do you have a bill No. for this I'd like to send my rep a letter.
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RE: DEC has it figured out!!
ORIGINAL: alloutdoors Do you really live in NY??? The deer herd here is certainly not in any need of "growing back". I do and I agree with him 100%.........there may be spots of dense populations still but on the whole the herd has been thinning for years now finally culminating in the current mess we find ourselves in today. The DEC better start worrying a little more about the HUGE areas of land that are seeing less and less deer every year rather then a few dense areas of concentrated numbers. Year round hunting?? As much as I would LOVE to hunt any time I wanted I find it absolutely laughable that anyone would even consider that at this point in time. [:'(] |
RE: DEC has it figured out!!
alloutdoors, How many different counties in NY do you hunt?
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RE: DEC has it figured out!!
NYB I have two words for you "Reading Comprehension". What you posted has absolutely zero to do with the DEC Do you really live in NY??? The deer herd here is certainly not in any need of "growing back". |
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RE: DEC has it figured out!!
ORIGINAL: alloutdoors And exactly what would that current mess be? The fact that the buck take was down by 20,000 this year? Do you have any idea how insignificant a number like 20,000 is when talking about the state as a whole??? The harvest was still above average. I personally know over a dozen guys that don't call in their harvests on the DECALS system and I am just one guy!!!.........this is the system you are relying on for accurate reporting of your deer herd.  I prefer to go by what I see with my own eyes year after year for the last 17 years and what my dad and all his friends have seen for the last 40+.........a decrease in overall deer numbers. Sure it has fluctuated but remains in a downward spiral. You ask someone who used to be in the woods when you needed 5 guys just to get a "party" permit and they will tell you about the numbers our "herd" used to have. Groups of 20-30 deer were not uncommon sights........compare that with what you see today. This has been coming for a long time...........it is only now starting to be noticed by more and more hunters and they are looking for recent scapegoats like winter and coyotes when the real answer is neither. On top of that, the major reason for the lower buck take was likely the crappy weather that affected most of the state on opening day of gun season in the southern tier, and then again on Thanksgiving weekend. Those two times are when the majority of guys get out into the woods. Bad luck weather wise on those dates is bound to impact the harvest. Bottom line, it's really easy to be an armchair quarterback. Why do you have so much confidence that the DEC is telling you the truth??.........other then they told you they are ;) |
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RE: DEC has it figured out!!
ORIGINAL: alloutdoors I hesitate to tell you because I think you will then just ignore anything I have to say, but I have worked for the DEC off and on for the past four years. Anyway, do you really think that we aren't aware that not all deer are called in??? Trust me, this is taken into account. It's quite simple actually. During deer season DEC employees spend a large amount of time at deer processors checking harvested deer. All the information is recorded and the deer are aged. Then all the tag numbers are checked against tags that were actually reported, this tells us the % of people who aren't reporting their tags. Let's say 10,000 deer are looked checked at processors, of that number it is found that 9,000 were reported and 1,000 weren't. So, 10% of the deer being shot aren't being reported, and for every 9 deer that are called into DECALS, one more is assumed to go unreported and is added to the tally. As far as what you are saying about seeing deer where you hunt over the last 17 years... habitat changes. As the habitat changes the deer move around. Sorry but the DEC isn't concerned with making sure that you always see the same number of deer on whatever piece of land you happen to hunt, that just isn't realistic. Now, if suddenly all the deer were disappearing from an entire WMU, that would be something that the DEC would act on. Here's the thing, and try not to take this personally, every hunter thinks he's an expert on deer and knows exactly what should be done about managing them. It's a really arrogant position to have, and is quite offensive to those who actually went to school and earned a degree in the wildlife field, many of whom are also hunters I might add. Apparently all that money we spent on our education was a waste, we could have just climbed into a deer stand for a few years and then we would know all the secrets of the natural world. Did you even notice that you followed your "arrogant position" statement with one of your own dismissing the value of decades of first hand experience in the woods as if it were meaningless because it didn't come from a book at a University?? You may want to watch that in the future as it really tarnishes your scoldings ;) Imagine if I showed up where you work and started telling you how you didn't know what the hell you were doing and how I was so much smarter than you, and how I could do your job so much better... would that piss you off? I think it would, and it should. Your problem is being to quick with the "crackpot" label. You should try and listen first BEFORE dismissing people as idiots because they aren't wearing a ranger patch. The majority of people at the DEC are well educated professionals who have worked hard to get where they are and they know what they are doing. Of course none of this means anything because I'm "in" on the mass conspiracy by the DEC to do in hunters and ruin hunting. One or two more years like this past year and the DEC will go public with something to ease the minds of all these guys not seeing deer like they used to.........they will have to because people are not gonna accept seasons like that for very long. |
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RE: DEC has it figured out!!
ORIGINAL: alloutdoors Ok, I see what part of the problem is. You don't seem to realize the different branches that exist within the DEC. First of all, the officers aren't the DEC, not in the sense of being the ones making the regs anyway. BTW... why do you say that DEC officers are wannabe cops? Do you realize that they actually ARE state troopers??? They have ALL of the power that a state trooper has PLUS the authority to enforce the environmental laws. Might want to be careful who you are calling wannabes. You said you are hunting "state forest"... there is a huge difference between state forest and Wildlife Management Areas. Management of state forest lands falls to the forestry division, and their goal is not necessarily wildlife management. Thats why most of the state forests are solid pine stands, they were put there for timber harvest, and no, your not going to find many deer there. As far as the deer counting, yeah not everyone takes their deer to a processor, I sure don't. But, if x% of people who take their deer to a processor aren't reporting their deer, it is reasonable to conclude that the same % of people who don't take their deer to a processor also arent reporting. You see how that works? You have got to be joking.........small random samples used and extrapolated to cover the whole state. Full of assumptions and guesswork. The error rate of such guesstimating would be huge. Trust me, state agencies have been doing this for quite a while now, they know what they are doing, it's really simple math. Infact I think I learned the procedure in the first wildlife class I took. As far as the sample size... maybe you missed the part that said ***These aren't "real" numbers... just going to keep it simple for an example.*** I was just using some simple numbers to illustrate the method. That's a good start. Well, that is how you would see it. However, let's be honest, spending a few days/weeks each fall in the woods deer hunting is not the same as having "decades of experience". Now add in all the days we spend in the woods scouting and hunting turkey and small game and you might start to see the light............but I doubt it. Do you honestly think that the average hunter who rails against the DEC for being "stupid" and "not knowing what the hell they are doing" is actually as qualified as a biologist who has spent their entire adult life studying deer, day in and day out??? You know, I drive to work and back everyday, I have a lot of "first hand experience" behind the wheel of a car, but I don't think that makes me qualified to head into turn 3 at Indy at 200 mph. See my point? And why is it that people always want to make it into an "us against them"? Who the hell is "them" anyways? Damn near everyone I know that is in the Bureau of Wildlife (thats the part of the DEC where you will find the wildlife biologists) is a hunter. So... THERE IS NO "THEM". Damn, you'd think DEC was on the grassy knoll...:eek::eek::eek: Because when a group is responsible for looking after our woods that we love so much and the animals within.........they have to face the music if they are not doing a good job.......just like every other job in the world. No one is saying they are twisting their hands like Mr Burns and hatching an evil plan against hunters in NY. I simply see them as incapable of doing the job........fill in the blank with whatever reason you want, it doesn't really matter. Bottom line is they are not doing a good job managing our deer herd and I will be damned if I am gonna sit there and watch it happen without voicing an opinion on the matter. Your attitude of "anyone who isn't a wildlife biologist should just shut up and leave it to the pros" is simply nauseating and has actually lowered my opinion of DEC officials because I'm sure you aren't the only wanna be out there with that attitude. No wonder we are on this dead end road. NY should be a Mecca for deer hunters from around the country.................should be :( |
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RE: DEC has it figured out!!
WOW.... would say that both of you are right in you'r own mind. We all should do that right thing. Like if there is a Year long Deer season, Then thats kool with me. Why you say? I will only take ones that need to go, in the summer you can teel the not so good ones. Hell if one gets hit by a car and hurt really bad, I can do the right thing. I guess what I mine is, If there is a season You don't have to hunt it. Do the math on that one...
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RE: DEC has it figured out!!
This whole subject, and argumentive responses really pisses me off! Here we got two guys going back & forth like 2 Mr. know it alls. 1 believes in the DEC, the other doesn't. So now I'm putting in my 2cents if its even worth that. I may not agree with everything the DEC does. But regardless its the only system we have in the state. So we need to make the best of it. Atlasman if you don't like the system the DEC uses, then why do you even bother to purchase a hunting license, heck why not just go poach your deer while your at it. You obviously expect the DEC system to be perfect, but yet you, and your buddies do little to help contribute to the system by not calling in your harvests. So all I can say if you don't think the system works, its partially do to NO EFFORT by yourself, and friends. So give yourself a big pat on the back there! I certainly appreciate your honesty for the future herd. So lets just complain about the system, but do nothing to help it. RIGHT!
On the other hand I do agree our deer populations are way down. The DEC has worked for the last several yrs to purposely lower the population. Its doing it for reasons to try, and satisfy all parties. The farmers, the motorists, and the hunters. Sure I'd like to see 20 deer go by in a herd. But those days are gone. But what we have now sure beats story's from my grandfathers telling me of hunting wks w/o ever seeing a deer. If a hunter cut a track they had a good day!!!!!!!!!! |
RE: DEC has it figured out!!
I'd also like to comment on Encon Ofcr's, seeing they got bashed in this forum. Encon has to learn more laws then your normal police ofcr. Encon has to know Penal, Criminal Procedure, and 2 thick volumes of Conservation law. 1 Conservation law book is more then twice the size of our NYS penal law. On top of that Encon are considered to have the most dangerous job of all law enforcement personal in NYS. Encon is almost always dealing with persons having firearms, and knives. Encon also does assist State Troopers with their duties. So before you go knocking our law enforcement persons, consider what they go through.
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RE: DEC has it figured out!!
Stop now alloutdoors. You'll never get them to admit they may be (even a bit) overboard. Conspiracy theories abound and give people something to complain about. I happen to agree with what you are stating (and probably some of what the others have said (however, the replies got too long so I stopped reading).
The type of legislation that was sited originally would most likely come from Ag & Markets and probably pushed by Farm Bureau. By the way there is something similar to this in place currently (DMAP). I believe there is quite an expanded "season" to utilize those permits. We've beaten these arguements into the ground in the past. Simple fact is: some people saw/harvested several deer last year (or 2) and some people didn't. Called luck of the draw, and the luck is enhanced by what you do before, during, & after the season and many other factors (local deer pop. fluctuations, hunting pressure, posted land, etc.). Hunt hard, be happy, and stop complaining so much (a little is fine and good for discussion, but this went south fast) NYBowhunter - why did you attack so fiercely?? We have had "discussions" in the past and I don't remember you "snapping" like that. I think there is a rule about that or somethin'. Deep breaths, deep breaths. ;) OK boys - fire away, I sure I have said something that is abosolutely wrong or I am naive, or something. |
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RE: DEC has it figured out!!
ORIGINAL: alloutdoors DB- Just one correction... ;) DMAP permits are only used during regular hunting seasons. However, farmers (or others who are experiencing deer damage) can apply for nuisance permits to take antlerless deer outside of normal seasons. When someone applies for these permits someone from the DEC does a site visit to examine the extent of any deer damage, and determine whether or not the nuisance permits are warranted. I know one farmer who has received nuisance permits for the last two years. He hands them out to his pals. None of them have killed a deer because there aren't any there! Some nuisance, huh? I know another farmer who gives his nuisance permits to his pals and tells them not to kill a deer with less than 8 points. Is he really worried about his crops? I think not. To get back to the original intent of this thread...if deer hunting were allowed year-round, I suspect that deer numbers would decline drastically. I spend lots of time in the upstate woods in the winter. Deer herd up in certain areas when snow depth increases. They become hungry and spend lots of time looking for food. I often find the low pine needle brances of every white pine eaten off during winter. Hunger lessens caution when snows are deep. It would be just too easy to kill them. Not much sport in killing something that is hungry and too weak to run away from you in deep snow. But...to each his own. Clint |
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RE: DEC has it figured out!!
NYBowhunter - why did you attack so fiercely?? We have had "discussions" in the past and I don't remember you "snapping" like that. DB- when the guys first words to me in response is this I have 0 tolerance for them.[:@] NYB I have two words for you "Reading Comprehension". The only thing I will say is I laughed for about 30 minutes about his arrogance references. Man that was funny!! Can you define hyprocrite? Anyway enjoy the debate I know when someone has is all figures out. Ironic the title of the thread isn't it? |
RE: DEC has it figured out!!
Someone mentioned about nuisance permits. Let me tell you my opinion of the NY nuisance permits. I know someone who received several nuisance permits due to deer problems, then posted the Heck out of their property and now give the permits to only their buddies. I would think, if the DEC was to give out nuisance permits, they should at least have the landowner to unpost their land or provide the "Ask for Permission" sticker. If someone doesn't want to unpost their land, then they shouldn't receive nuisance permits... PERIOD! No Hunting allowed, no special priveleges!
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RE: DEC has it figured out!!
OH LORD CATT!! Please don't even get me started on that subject. I would like to hear the justification behind this one though. I agree with you Catt. The whole thought of "nuisance tags" makes me sick to my stomach. Is the DEC really that naive??
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RE: DEC has it figured out!!
alloutdoors, thank you for clearing this up for me. I might have had some information incorrect. All I was told by someone was that their In-law owns a 300 acre christmas tree farm. Supposedly, he received 10 or so "nuisance permits". I also know they don't allow anyone to hunt on the property except family members and close friends. I don't know anymore than that. It could be those nuisance permits were really DMAPs. Based on what you described, it sounds like the DEC is going about it correctly and I don't have enough accurate information to report someone to the DEC. Thanks again.
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RE: DEC has it figured out!!
Nuisance permits are supposed to be a targeted response to a specific problem. When used properly they can be very useful and provide a needed relief to farmers. As I have said though, if you know of people abusing the system do the right thing and report them. P.s. I've "reported" them until I was blue in the face. Close your eyes and look at where it got me or the hunting community around me!! |
RE: DEC has it figured out!!
ORIGINAL: alloutdoors Clint- If you really know someone who is shooting antlered bucks on nuisance permits please do the right thing and turn them in to the authorities. Same thing for the people that are taking several deer on a permit. If someone is misusing permits and they are caught their are consequences. The problem is with the individual in that case, not the system. Look at it this way, some "hunters" will take more than one deer on a single tag during the normal season. They just keep reusing the same tag, usually by trying to fill it out in pencil or something and then erasing it once they get the deer processed. Obviously this is illeagal, and they aren't hunter's, they are poachers, plain and simple. The same is true if someone tries to do it with the nuisance tags. And yes hunting deer year round would be a horrible idea. Politicians need to stop trying to dictate managment practices about which they are ill informed. Clint |
RE: DEC has it figured out!!
ORIGINAL: alloutdoors First of all they aren't just given out like candy as some of you seem to think. First the property is checked to determine that there is actual deer damage occuring. Then the owner is asked if they allow hunting. If not chances are not so good for them getting approved. Whether or not the land is posted is not an issue, although I can understand why this bothers you. Really though, as long as the landowner is making a serious effort to control the herd on their property during the regular season it doesn't matter who is hunting it, I don't think you can force someone to open their land up to anybody. Anyway, if they are making a serious effort and are still having deer damage then nuisance permits become an option. Another thing that happens a lot is a farmer will call and ask for nuisance permits, but after some talking you find out that the reason they are calling is because someone who hunts their land told them to call and request them, because the hunter wants to have his own private little season. This is the reason for the on site visits and in this case they are usually told to go to hell, although not in such harsh terms. Part of the problem is people seeing the nuisance permits as "extended hunting". DEC tries to stress that there is a difference, nuisance tags are not for hunting, they are to solve a problem. BTW, when nuisance permits are given the landowner is supposed to list who their "shooters" are, so if you know of someone who is just handing them out to all his buddies you might want to give a call to your DEC office and have them look into it. Anyhow, the way it is supposed to work is the permits are given, a couple of shooters are assigned, and after a couple of nights of shooting they take care of the problem. I know some farmers who get nuisance permits year after year and there aren't on-site visits. They call up and get them. They manage to get them even though they couldn't manage to kill a deer with one the previous year. The system needs re-vamping. As it is with every sort of law enforcement that is run by the state of New York, there needs to be more time spent enforcing and less time spent joyriding and sitting in coffee shops. We ain't gettin' our dollar's worth! Clint |
RE: DEC has it figured out!!
Can I just ask 3 simple questions?
1. Do you honestely think hunters in NY should be able to take 7 deer in one season? 2. Do you think "nuisance" tags should be permitted (are they being put to proper use) 3. What do you think the combination of both of these have to do with the deer population (positive or negative)?? |
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RE: DEC has it figured out!!
ORIGINAL: alloutdoors I've explained twice that the numbers I gave above were strictly hypothetical and yet you still continue to argue their statistical validity... WTF. It's funny that you would try and criticize the DEC for not having an accurate idea how many deer are out there... when you obviously don't have any clue how the numbers are attained in the first place. That's really not the attitude I have. The only point I have been trying to make is that the people at DEC are qualified professionals. The fact that you want to paint them all as ignorant and incompetent only shows your own ignorance. If you want to respectfully disagree that is one thing, but simply trying to put down your "opponent" by calling them an idiot is childish. On top of that your comments about conservation officers are not only incredibly ignorant, but quite offensive. Not just to ECO's but to all law enforcement officers, not to mention to anyone who has lost a friend or relative in the line of duty. I'm sure everyone on the NYPD sees DEC officers as equals ;)I'd hate to see what it's like when they aren't so scarce... can't beat the damn things of with a stick as it is now. No wonder we are in this mess. |
RE: DEC has it figured out!!
ORIGINAL: BuckAlley But regardless its the only system we have in the state. So we need to make the best of it. Atlasman if you don't like the system the DEC uses, then why do you even bother to purchase a hunting license, heck why not just go poach your deer while your at it. You obviously expect the DEC system to be perfect, but yet you, and your buddies do little to help contribute to the system by not calling in your harvests. So all I can say if you don't think the system works, its partially do to NO EFFORT by yourself, and friends. So give yourself a big pat on the back there! I certainly appreciate your honesty for the future herd. So lets just complain about the system, but do nothing to help it. RIGHT! On the other hand I do agree our deer populations are way down. The DEC has worked for the last several yrs to purposely lower the population. Sure I'd like to see 20 deer go by in a herd. But those days are gone. |
RE: DEC has it figured out!!
ORIGINAL: BuckAlley I'd also like to comment on Encon Ofcr's, seeing they got bashed in this forum. Encon has to learn more laws then your normal police ofcr. Encon has to know Penal, Criminal Procedure, and 2 thick volumes of Conservation law. 1 Conservation law book is more then twice the size of our NYS penal law. On top of that Encon are considered to have the most dangerous job of all law enforcement personal in NYS. Encon is almost always dealing with persons having firearms, and knives. Encon also does assist State Troopers with their duties. So before you go knocking our law enforcement persons, consider what they go through. I'm sure they are all swell guys who studied really hard. It doesn't change my observations and experiences with them. I never intended my comments to be bashing of DEC officers........just a general observation..........I think it touched a nerve because it hit close to home. |
RE: DEC has it figured out!!
ORIGINAL: alloutdoors the tags are issued with the knowledge that only a % of them will actually be filled. That is such a lame answer it's laughable. The tags are issued in hopes that they WILL be filled........the fact that only a certain % actually do get filled is the DEC falling short of it's goals. The only logical reason to give more tags is that you want more deer killed. Hunter's can't kill more deer without more tags. If they know that people are never gonna fill 5-7 tags then why are they wasting all the resources that go into figuring out and distributing all those useless tags?? Gee, I wonder if pumping up herd numbers to make guys think they can fill that many tags each year so they spend the extra money on a super sportsman has anything to do with it?? ;) |
RE: DEC has it figured out!!
You guys are starting to sound like the Pa. guys[:-]
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RE: DEC has it figured out!!
Gee, I wonder if pumping up herd numbers to make guys think they can fill that many tags each year so they spend the extra money on a super sportsman has anything to do with it?? . I think if everyone shot their 5 deer each year that would cause problems. |
RE: DEC has it figured out!!
I'd buy the super sportsmens anyway. Because I use it.
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RE: DEC has it figured out!!
If it's not possible to even come close to filling the tags then why give them all out??
Oh yea I forgot $$$$$$ Wonder what they do with all that extra money..........I also wonder if alloutdoors plans on ever answering ANY of my questions about the accuracy of these processor visits??? |
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