RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

Wouldn't that eventually put them out of a job??

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

I should have written that more clearly.


I have nothing against college boys........the letters after my name are just as long as my name ;)


I prefer to judge people by their actions........not some paper on the wall :)

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

Why??.........there is much more for the DEC to do then care for deer. Plus, if money is coming in from other sources that want deer numbers down they aren't really losing and in fact probably making more money.

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

making money, until there's no deer right?

Deer hunting brings in millions to the state I can't see them wanting to decimate the herd.

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

Your trying to read the DEC's mind aren't you? ;):D[8D];)

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RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

I think it's time to put up or shut up,Atlasman you have been challenge to provide evidence or this case will be dismissed;)

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

There will never be NO deer.......no matter how hard they try ;)

You don't really believe that insurance companies and others that wish to see deer numbers reduced don't have millions of dollars do you??

Seems to me that the best of both worlds would be to replace money from hunters from a different avenue while still convincing hunters that their are plenty of deer out there to go chase.........that makes you more money and is much easier to accomplish because there is no way you are going to pull that off the other way around. Car accidents and crop damage are documented and easy to total up........you can't BS those groups into thinking it isn't happening. Hunters on the other hand can just be told that they aren't good enough, or trying hard enough or everyone else is doing fine so the problem must be related to you or your personal tract of land............trust us there are plenty out there no matter what your field experience shows.

Problem is now hunters are talking with other hunters more then ever and realizing they AREN'T the only ones noticing this...........hopefully it will only be a matter of time before we get together and do something about improving this before it's too late.

One important thing to remember is that the majority of hunters (just average weekend guys) only have one source for deer info and that is the DEC. They have neither the time nor the energy to do extensive research to check the validity of what they are told and truthfully most wouldn't do it if they could.......they just don't care enough. This sets the stage for a large group of people that can be easily influenced by stories of a growing herd and how sweet it is for deer hunters in NY..........and they are prime targets for the "you're not trying hard enough" excuse because they know they only put in a few weekends a year so it could be true in their case. I am willing to bet if you took a poll of hunters coming out of the woods after opening day of shotgun season the majority would not have a clue what the condition of the herd is. It is a recipe for disaster when the almighty dollar is involved.


Of course that is just one possible way we got where we are today. It could be that the DEC is just incompetent and they really do think the herd is growing instead of shrinking. They could be depending on poor data and really have good intentions but bad tools to work with. It could be a combination of all these things. It could also be pressure from the state for the DEC to do things a certain way and they really don't have much say in it.


It doesn't really matter to me what the real reason is........the bottom line is that things need to change and a good start to that would be better communication between hunters and the DEC so we both are in agreement as to the real conditions that exist in the woods we stroll through every day.

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

Wouldn't that be great :D Wish I could.

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

What's the difference?? Who cares who is doing the collecting or counting.......as long as someone is doing it right I don't care if they have horses stomping their feet........in fact technicians sounds even better because they should be a cheaper work force and easier to handle financially if the demand for hours was to rise.


I'm sure they can find a way to get a few technicians out in the field for some data collection. Besides, anyone can use a barcode reader so the technicians could still be free to collect bio data when needed. How hard is it to scan tags with a barcode reader??? If they can teach 16 year old girls to do it at Wal-Mart I'm sure the DEC can figure it out.....(well maybe).


Me and 99% of the other hunters out there.........but that is meaningless because we didn't go to school with you :eek:


Ask any average hunter what he would want (weekend guys) and they will tell you more deer. They don't care about huge racks or record books.......sure bucks are a nice bonus but the bottom line is they want to feel like they have a legit chance at seeing deer and maybe getting one for the freezer. This doesn't mean we have to have deer behind every tree but when you have groups of guys out for a week straight and the lucky one of the group is the guy who even saw a deer.......you have a problem. No one pretends to believe that deer everywhere are good for our woods or farms but there is no doubt in my mind that the deer herd can be maintained at a much higher level then it is right now. There is a big difference between managing a herd and depleting one.


And all you are going on is a "feeling" that the DEC's data is accurate and 100% truthful in it's presentation. No one knows for sure if the DEC has reliable people collecting this data and processing it and when they tally it all up whether or not it has a large error margin or perhaps the numbers are fudged a little here and there to keep people on both sides of the fence happy. No one knows these things for sure except the upper levels at the DEC and the state............you don't and I don't. You however have blind faith in the DEC that every word out of their mouths is gospel. Me??......I prefer to match what they are telling me with what I and countless others are seeing and experiencing in the field year after year. When the two of those not only don't match but are in fact polar opposites then something's rotten in Denmark.

If the DEC was telling me there were deer all over the place and I saw deer all over the place I would say they were doing a good, accurate job of counting the herd.

It's common sense really.



Good thing you got a handle on that arrogance thing..........and weren't you the one whining a couple posts back about name calling?? Your hypocrisy is so engrained you can't even see it


Your points are so silly they are barely worth a response. You know very well that no individual has the time, equipment or ability to do all that by himself while working full time and having a family...........guess what??.....THAT'S WHAT THE DEC IS FOR!!!!!

You are getting way off track now and focusing too much on the counting thing. I never said that inaccurate counting was FOR SURE the cause of the DEC blundering. It is very possible that it is......but there are a whole host of other reasons that could be the cause. In the end I don't give a frog's fat one what the cause is.........bottom line is I want that cause eliminated so we stop getting pumped up numbers about a herd exponentially growing beyond capacity because it just isn't the case. First thing they have to do is admit they have a problem.......then we can talk about fixing it. You are missing the big picture.


You know what??.......you are so willing to blindly follow the data and stats being flashed before your eyes and totally ignore all the first hand knowledge and experience of what is going on in the real world.

If you want an example of how blindly following data or falsely using that data to get what you want can backfire when the truth comes out why don't you call George W. Bush and ask him how his search for WMD is going ;)

Now with an example like that from the highest agencies in the land of how you can convince people to do anything if you stretch the truth or bend reality to fit your plans......do you really think that it is impossible for the DEC to be blowing smoke when millions of dollars are out there for the taking??

It's not conspiracy paranoia or not trusting the govt. It's just reality. These kinds of things happen when politicians and money and agencies and policies all get thrown in the blender with a pile of cash.

If you think for one minute that the DEC cares more about you then they do your money you are in serious need of a reality check...........I'm even fine with that......take my money, but damn man at least use it to provide us with what we want to enjoy every day..........nice woods with animals to hunt.

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RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

ATLASMAN,THIS CASE IS DISMISSED FOR LACK OF EVIDENCE,YOU PROVIDED THE COURT WITH NOT A SHRED OF FACT OR FIGURE,ITS TIME TO CONVENE ANYTHING FUTHER AND YOU WILL BE HELD IN COMTEMPT[:o]DISMISSED!!!![:-][:-][:-];)

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

Hey I saw a deer last night on the way home from work!!! What a moment. It was really remarkable. OK that's 1 per square mile as far as I can tell. Now what?

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

99%? I must live and hunt with all the ones that make up the other 1% - Southern Cayuga county around Moravia on the east side of Owasco Lake. Had no problem filling 5 tags and passing on many, many more. Hunting small private parcels that have several other hunters with permission. Bordering a state forest that has heavy archery pressure and gets pounded the 1st week and most of gun and even muzzloader.

In the last week, while driving my area at dusk and dawn, have seen good numbers of deer in the fields. Most of my friends and other hunters had similar success in harvesting the venison they desired. Not saying the DEC is right or perfect - just that different areas and observations do exsist. And 99% may be a little off.

Steve

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

atlas-

You make some pretty valid points. I still tend to disagree with some of your logic. However, I know for a fact that DEC is teeter-tottering on several issues and just waiting to hear some hunter feed back. As I have said before, we are fortunate enough to have several agencies within this state, that hunters in other areas would die for. Moreover, if you have somehting to tell the DEC regarding your hunting experiences then I encourage you to do so and as often as possible.

Also, the DEC has stated that this year the deer population in NY is stable or slightly on the decline as they had hoped for. In most areas they have reached desirable levels for the habitat and we should be seeing a few less DMP this year in some places. Hopefully, this will ease your mind a little. ;)

Lastly, to state the 99% of the hunters in this state are dis-satified is a littel bit of an overstatement, would you agree? I do not personally know one person who is dissatisifed with the current system of managment. However, I do hear several people on-line who have some issues with what is transpiring. I believe thse sediments are highly regional, however.

I have one last question for you: What part of the state do you hunt and do you hunt public or private land primarily?

Thanks. TGK

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

I was out and about last night around 6:00pm and I saw more deer than I could count, there were several fields with at least 15 to 20 deer in the herd, now that to me looks like a pretty good deer population,

All around this area Stueben, Schyular, Chemung County's, I have seen deer every day, and not just one or two, a whole freakin herd. Now I am sure in some areas the deer aren't that aboundent, so I don't think the population in down all over, It's just in some areas. I think this issue has grown way out of proportion, and no one is getting anywere, you all are just picking back and forth like school children. let the DEC do what they do, If some one has a better way well write to your main DEC office, quit whinning and do something about it..;)

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

You ask a question that can't possibly be answered and then act smug when you get your reply.......I am also surprised :eek:

The data you asked for cannot be obtained by a single person with no access to the equipment and manpower necessary to collect it. Also it would take a VERY long time to do what you asked so you know no one can do it if it is not their job.

Once again that is what the DEC is for.........not me.


I noticed you conveniently glossed over 2 important sections of my reply.

#1 You are focusing too much on the counting issue rather then the fact that the low numbers........which is the REAL concern. I would ask you to show me where I said that poor counting was without a doubt the problem but I know you will not answer me like so many times before and also you couldn't answer me if you wanted to because I never said it. Try sticking to the topic instead of making foolish claims off on a tangent..............and for god's sake will you look up hypocrite in the dictionary because not answering other people's questions and then gloating when your's isn't answered is laughable.


#2 You made no effort to explain what you have to prove your beliefs in the DEC and their numbers............because you have NONE. Nothing except their word which you just happen to follow with blind faith. You have no way of knowing if anything they tell you is actually done and to what degree of accuracy.........other then what they tell you. You choose to believe them soley on their word.......I however need more then someone's word to take the bait. If their word matched with what I and the majority of hunters were seeing and experiencing in the field then I would have no trouble agreeing with them. When their word totally conflicts with what most people are seeing first hand in the woods then something needs to be looked at more closely because they both can't be that far off.

At least my opinion is based on the reality of what is going on in the woods..........your's is based on what some number crunching technician prints off his laptop.

Did you call Bush and ask him how smart it is to blindly follow data on paper and bad stats while discounting the first hand feedback of those in the field??

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

I'm guessing you are a child

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

I hunted moravia 3-4 days with my two brothers last year..........my oldest brother saw a spiker out of bow range and that was it. Nice place though. Didn't see any other archery hunters any of the days we hunted. Saw a couple of gun hunters one day with tree pruners cutting "shooting lanes" [:o]

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

Probably.............but that is a VERY accurate statement reguarding the western ny area where I primarily hunt. I have yet to speak to someone any where near here that is seeing anything different then what I am saying. I know a group of 25 guys that come up every year from PA to hunt our southern tier.........they love it and have been coming for years. The last few years they have been saying that the deer numbers are down noticably and this last season they only took one spike buck in a 5 day hunt with 25 guys [:o] Sadly, this was the last straw......next year they are going to try Ohio instead.


I can't speak for the ENTIRE state..........and I think the DEC makes that very mistake. Sure the herd has dense spots but just because one area has a bunch of deer doesn't mean other areas are the same. They need to do a better job of recognizing the areas that are getting whacked too hard and back off the permits for awhile. I have 10-15 deer in my backyard every day..........but do me a favor and don't use them as a way to determine the population in our area because they can't be hunted.

Did you see the chart for doe permits last year??........JESUS!!! Just about every damn option was a high liklihood of 2 tags. Cmon man, they are saying that damn near EVERY zone in the state is infested??



Western NY. Erie, Wyoming, Cattaragus, Allegheny counties mostly. Also hunted a few times out near Auburn in Moravia (not sure county). I hunt private and state land with more time spent on state land especially for gun seasons.

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

Atlasman

Sent you an email

Steve

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

atlas- I really don't know what to tell you... Not like I have the definaiative answer, anyway. I have hunted and do hunt many of the same areas (countywise) as you. However, I do understand that things can greatly vary from property to property. You still didn't answer whether or not you hunt mainly public or private land but that's okay. I have yet to personally notice a problem and you are the first person I have heard complain about lower deer densities in the western part of the state. According to you, you hear it often so I take your word for it. Like I said before, let your opinion be known to those who matter, which is not me and most likely not anyone else on this forum. They will listen as long as there is a majority!!!

At any rate my mind is at easy over all this. I wish you good luck and my offer still stands to visit our area. :) TGK

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

Oops, sorry, you did answer that question. I must have read over it or my compuer didn't load it properly. [8D] Sorry for the confusion. TGK

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RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

now now my mommy always told me name calling was a sign of ignorance[:'(]Atlasman you are mad at the world Sorry you feel this way but CHILL we are all friendly here and on the same team;)

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

All I can talk about are the area's I hunt. There are more deer here then twenty years ago.

My son and I were driving back from the Ithaca area last weekend. Rt 13-224 -34 -96 -434. We had to see about 150 in a hour trip. I just got back from scouting for Turkey and there was deer sign everywhere.

Do I believe that certain area's population are down? Sure why shouldn't I?

Do I think year round deer hunting is a good idea? No. That's why I'm working on a letter to my State Rep. Has anyone else done this??

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

I think the real problem is regional like someone else suggested. It is probably a difficult task to segrate each county with different management practices, but my God the areas that are not as dense as others could be a huge discrepancy!! It seems to me like they are taking the overpopulated regions and implementing management practices based on controlling those. Well what about the zones that are not as dense or struggling with their deer herd?? What happens to that population? It suffers in accordance with a blanket management program geared towards managing over populated areas. So basically they bring the numbers to an acceptable level in dense areas and mutilate the population in areas that are currentely struggling with the herd. Why cant' the bring balance to all zones involved??

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

Well you can add to your percentage. I grew up on Owasco Lake and hunt in the Auburn area.

What fields are these?? Can we meet sometime and observe them together??[:-]

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

Steve - you are wrong, absolutely wrong

don't you know, there are no deer in NY - DEC's mismanagement has ruined the deer hunting. you were obviously not seeing deer - they must have been long legged dogs or something

come on, get a grip on reality!!!

:););):D:):D;):):D;):D:);):D;):):D:D;):):):D

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

NY Bowhunter

Just got back from another drive - south of Auburn on Rockefellow Rd - up Hall rd to Oak Hill south to next right back to Rockefellow. Saw3 different herds of 15+ - 2 herds of 8+ and probably 25 more deer in groups of 2 or 3. 80 + deer not counting the 9 feeding in the field behind my house near Church Rd. This area recieves moderate archery pressure and intense gun pressure. The state land bordering Corrigan Rd lies in the middle and prvides good access. Come to one of the Moravia Bowhunter 3d shoots this summer and I'll give you a tour

Steve

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

i'm not sure what you are exactly saying, but they do try and regulate population regionally (locally). that is what the DMUs are for. That is why some areas have high doe permit allocations and others have lower and some have none (why 7J has high second chance for a permit and 7M has no chance and why you can't shoot doe in the Adirondacks). Granted, some of that is do to hunting pressure, but the bottom line is that the doe permit allocations are meant to help decreas/balance the population.

I'm not sure if this is what you were talking about, but thought i'd mention it anyway.

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

steve - again, you just don't get it! those aren't deer. maybe funny colored cows, escaped llamas, or mirages. don't try and fool us with your tricks.

;):D:D:):D;):):):D;):D;):):):):D

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

Deer are black and white - right?:D

Steve

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

one other point - i spent a weekend with my buddy in Owasco (they had the best season ever - 2 wall hangers, couple other buck, and a few doe - and saw many more) I too, saw the biggest deer I have ever seen (didn't get a second gimpse, let alone a shot [:@])

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

Oh Lord well it's very simple Auburn isn't a very big area right?? Let me know where on East Lake road you are seeing these herds of deer and I'll check it out myself. Or we could meet at Tom Thumb and go from there?? What do you say? Talk is cheap!!!! I'm flexible show me where you are seeing these "herds" of deer and I'll admit I am dead wrong.

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

OHhhhhhhhhh Steve!! I see you were viewing the thread and weren't very receptive to my offer?? Didn't respond? Why is that? I'd like to meet you at sunrise or sunset and you can show me these fields with the "herds" of deer? What do you say?

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

Ken
Wasn't sure your post was to me. I wasn't trying to challange you - was simply citing my observations in the 3 or 4 mile radius around me. I listed the roads and route I drove tonight. For you, go south on East Lake to Rockefeller - east on Riley, Hall or Durea to Oak Hill and do block grids. If you would like more detailed directions, then let me know.
Ease up:)

Steve

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

DB - you get more and more childish with ever post.

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

Right OK Elvis I'll see ya there.

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