RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

works for me atlas. Hey do you have a biology degree? How did you come up with that you lonely tree climber.:D

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

like i said originally alloutdoors, should have stopped when the stopping was possible.
I know it's hard to but sometimes you just got to walk away.
We are always going to have differences of opinion - most of the time we can have decent conversations/discussions on these interesting topice, but this one has digresses too far and the same dead horse is being beaten.
All I know is that I am glad I am ALWAYS right!!!!!:D:D:);):D:);)

I think I will follow my original advice and STOP.

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

Then why don't they do what the public DOES want?? The general hunting public in NY right now does not care about chasing bone around the woods or getting into a stupid book. What they want is to be able to take their son/daughter into the woods and show them the excitement of hunting and seeing deer in the wild.........not sit in a stand for 8 hours a day/5 days a week and only see a few chipmunks and squirrels. They want to use their vacation time for opening week and spend a few days with family and friends at a cabin away from sidewalks and street lights and see a few deer along the way. They want something on the pole at the end of the week and a few stories to last them until next year.

Is that so hard to understand??

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

damn, cant do it (stop that is)

not bad ideas, however - you know how many people complian about license fees and the costs of hunting?? (a lot) - do u thiunk those people will "waste" $.37 on mailing the unused tags?? (maybe self addressed stamped envelope?)

and

how in the world are you going to monitor those calling and those not calling although I like the idea of doe tag penalties or even doe tag rewards (preferences) for those complying with these hypothetcal regs

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

Atlasman- As I continue to read all your posts it is blatantly apparent that you are in fact a spin doctor. Again, you prove my point and show that there is not room for accountability in your world. You continuously blame others for your lack of understanding in these matters and blatant disregard for founded knowledge. In your world everything is obviously black and white. To twist words in the fashion you have is wonderful. Have you ever considered a career in used cars? I have had far more success getting walls to think about things. Instead of considering the possibilities and what you can do to help the situation you come on a public forum cry, whine and point fingers. My suggestion to you is to stop hunting if you are so dissatisfied. Apparently, you are unwilling to take matters further on your own and refuse to understand any additional concepts. There is much to be said about those who require instant of self gratification above all else. Just because the DEC is not living up to your standards does by no means they have failed in the management. You are better off not wasting your money on a license and taking up golf.

I find it ironic how you use my example of co-ops to prove your own point where its people like you that make them necessary. Co-ops and QDM lands have been formed so that hunters can choose their own destiny not because the DEC was doing a poor job but because hunters were slobs and not doing theirs either in harvest or voicing their opinions. We are forced to manage the hunters more often than the game and this can only be accomplished through pushing the bad apples out. People like you are the reason why we have to spend tens of thousands of dollars each year to lease and buy land so we can have a group that understands the process and deer biology as a whole. Like I said before, DEC can’t do everything for you, just the same as any other governing party. You just seem to be too short sighted to realize that. I have a justifiable answer to every single one of your questions however, I choose not to waste my time answering as your mind is already made up and there is no room for additional thought on these matters. Obviously, we could go back and fourth like this til we are both blue in the face. However, the difference between you and I is I look at your subject matter objectively and with an open mind where you only go on the defensive, point fingers and state how everyone else is wrong. Like others have said, if you have a better system let someone know about it. Otherwise, please do not burden us with your lack of knowledge and mind boggling posts any longer. You have yet to provide one specific point that is not based on someone else’s posts.

Good luck to you this fall. I offer you this; if you would like to, I would be happy to share my knowledge with you regarding these matters. I am even willing to invite you to my land despite your crass towards me and my associates to see how we do what we do to manage our habitat, hunters and game. I can even get you face time with DEC official to explain your feelings if you would like. That is a sincere offer and I truly mean it. I believe that sometimes the only way to get people to see eye to eye is to look into their eyes and talk face to face. My offer stands, but I am sure you will negate it in some way. TGK

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

Yes........but sadly it's in human biology........I feel so dumb :(

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

I think he already came up with a great system.

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

Of course not........it didn't come from the DEC ;) Us slow witted tree climbers aren't TOTALLY useless ;)


You said yourself that we need to be proactive right??........suck it up and get a stamp. The self addressed stamped envelope is nice but you have a better chance of getting hunter's to foot the bill then the state. They could add the 37 cents into the license fees and not even make it an option........or just say if you don't mail in your tags you don't get a license next year. How about a turn in at license outlets for those unwilling to pay for a stamp??



Easy......any unreturned tag should have been called in........check to see if it was and if not that hunter is responsible for it and that's that.




People will seldom do something if they have nothing to gain or lose personally......that is why the DECALS system is so ripe for abuse.

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

not a bad price to pay for doe tags the following year.:D

I think this system could work. Example:
tag #21 (Joe Blow) was issued 5 doe tags
tag #21 (Joe Blow)has called in 2 deer
tag #21 (Joe Blow) had better mail in 3 unused tags or Joe doesn't receive any the next season. A letter with a deadline as a reminder maybe? Take all the mailed in unused tags and all the called in deer mix in some percentage errors either way and arrive at what I think could be a more accurate assesment.

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

Atlas- you make a very good point about mailing unused tags in. I really like that idea. I believe it would create a system of Accountability...

NYB- Was not really refering to you. I know you do a lot to make changes. Maybe it is time for you to get some "face time" with officials. I don't know what to say besides but I'm sorry that you have to deal with that $h1T on both ends. Giving up is not the answer though. My mother always said to me that the "squeeky wheel always gets the greese" Maybe that will be the case... HOPEFULLY for you. I encourage you to keep persuning these issues...

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

WHAT???.........I DEMAND accountability. Do your job and do it right or get lost and let someone else do it.

Your logic of the DEC sucks so we have to pick up their slack is mindboggling. Who else out there gets this free pass at work??


I offered a solution............and what exactly don't I think about?? Browse, habitat and enviornment?? Jesus H man........the DEC doesn't do my job for me why the heck should I be expected to do theirs?? I do my part, I encourage others to do theirs, I offer helpful solutions and real life experiences from the state lands in hopes of helping develope a better working system........What else do you want me to do?? The captain of this ship is driving it right into the rocks and until that changes we can only do so much to stop it........especially when you are faced with an organization that is very unreceptive to outside input.



Are you out of your mind??.......I am trying to save hunting because I love it so much that I want my kids and their kids to enjoy the same pleasures that a life in the woods offers. I don't want my kids hanging out on the street corners.......I want them in a treestand, holding a bow......not a XBOX controller.

Why not fix the problem instead of saying "If you don't like it leave" What are you gonna do if everyone takes your advice and does leave?? Would that really make you happy?? I myself prefer to not only keep the current hunters we have but to make the lifestyle attractive to others and their kids so it continues to thrive long after I am gone.



What an absolute horrific statement to make to another hunter. [:'(]

Are you saying I am a slob hunter??


You are a scarey person pretending to be on our side. Push the bad apples out......people like you??.........Take off your hood and ease up babe. What's next??........goosestepping in line with our right arms out and little square stashes??


and what do you do with any governing party that isn't doing a good job?? Get other people in their that will.


Already did that.




It is amazing to me how you guys post..............you call me a slob hunter, a bad apple that needs to be pushed out, and refer to me as "people like you"........then attack me 10 more different ways only to finish by saying you want me to come hang with you (pun intended) so you can re-educate me properly.

Then you point out that any refusal by me to accept such a kind hearted, warm welcome is due to my desire to remain closed minded.


WOW

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

Osiris,

I have read a few of your posts and you seem like a nice enough guy. I am going to leave you an opening to apologize for your last post because it was EXTREMELY offensive and had a much too personal tone to it.

If that is not how you intended it please let me know because I really hope that is not how you feel towards other hunters.

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

Wow- you twisted that one good too.

Listen, all I am saying is open your mind and let your vioce be heard. You can take my posts however you want. You can use my quotes however, you want. Against me for your self, whatever. You can even see me as Nazi scum if that is how you feel. I am just trying to get you to see things from another side, as were you. Agian I state the difference between you and I is I look at what you say and it makes me think. I question whether you even ponder on what I have to say. You doubt my creidbility, where I understand yours. I appologize if you are offended but what I said but I am too with the manner in which you twist my words. Overall, I believe it is very hard to communicate via the net but that is not license to close your mind.

Regarding my offer, it still stands and my point was that maybe you do need to reeducate yourself. I am always learning. You have tought me a lot here with this debate. Take it for what it is worth. But maybe now is the time to take a look from a different anlge versus being so neagtive. You apparently, don't have any solutions, so look at it from another direction. I never told you to deal with anything. I told you to make changes by whatever means possible. That point is clear as day. You do what you do and I will do what I do. Again, good luck to you. TGK

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

Also, I never called you a slob hunter you infered that. I was saying the problem was slob hunters. TGK

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

see its issues like this that we as hunters need to stand together and find a way to make changes.. insted of taking all this negative energy and useing it againist eachother, we should focus on getting these things changed for the positive, I have no bad feelings towards anyone in this descussion, everyone is intitled to his or her own opinons and we all have our views, and reasons why we feel the way we do. But the bottom line is we need to do something to help make these changes happen..

NYbowhunter, I apologize if I offended you with the pointing fingers remark that was not directed towards anyone in this post, It was ment in a general statement, I to have had similer dealings with econ, But I still tyr to do what I can, and I will still do what is nessacery for me to do. I agree with both side's of this subject to a certian degree, some of the things the DEC does I dont understand how or why they do it, but If I can find a way to help I certianly will, I think this topic is gotten way out of hand, insted of banding together to try to get these issues fix people are just insulting eachother and turing this into a giant pissing match. I only hope at the end we all can see eye to eye and understand that we are all on the same side, just with different opinons of how things should work...

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RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

Like I said 2 pages ago,starting to sound like Pa guys on Ar.Lets let it go and hope everyone in state legistature let's it go also

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RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

Agreed :eek:;)

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

It's not twisting anything......they are the words you used and the meaning I got from the context you used them in. I am not trying to make you sound like you are saying something you are not. That is really the way your post reads.


Why do you say I have a closed mind???.....because I don't agree with you?


Just trying to get you to understand how your comments appear to an outside reader. We cannot read your mind......only what you type. Read some of the stuff you posted and try and put yourself in someone elses shoes that doesn't know "what you really meant"


That's too bad because it isn't true.


I don't ever remember doubting your credibility........I listen to all people.......degree or no degree and anyone with experience in the woods has my attention.....whether they keep it or not depends on what happens next.

I think an apology is in there somewhere so it's cool ;)




I think I do.....I've mentioned one here and have many more ideas on ways to improve the current system.

The major obstacle lies in the DEC not thinking there even is a problem. They don't want to hear solutions to problems they don't acknowledge exist.

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

I guess the "people like me" comment threw me off

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

I have said that is ONE of the things I believe is involved in a poorly accurate view of our herd.......the DEC seems to think everything is fine and the herd is growing each and every year despite every hunter over age 20 will tell you that the woods do not hold the numbers of deer they did years ago........So where are they?? The DEC says we should be swimming in them and yet ask any hunter out there and they will tell you the numbers are not even what they were years ago..........let alone more. This is a major problem at the DEC.....it's like watching an alcoholic who doesn't know he has a drinking problem. Personally I think it is time for an intervention ;)


Why is it so much more money?? You could eliminate all those visits the officers have to make to processors and keep them in a warm building counting tags instead. If they would get the bar code reader working then you can vastly improve productivity.

You are also short sighting the impact of what I am proposing........you are not considering what effect it could have on other things. All the hunters that fail to report kills will not be able to get doe permits the following year, which will leave more does alive and lead to more deer in the herd. If 20,000 people don't report a kill and none get to kill a doe next year that could mean 60,000 more deer for next season.


Used to be mandatory in NY.........did you not know that??

Too easy to get around and near impossible to predict it's true effectiveness.........unless penalties were severe which will never happen.

What is the difference between making everyone stop at a check station and making them all mail in their unused tags?? I think my way is easier and more effective.

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

can you guess who I am??

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blah blah blah

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blah blah blah

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blah blah blah

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blah blah blah

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blah blah blah


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blah blah blah

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blah blah blah


I even agree a little and he is all over me, give me a break

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RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

:D:D:D;):);):);):D

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

Is it wrong to use quotes so people don't have to flip back and search pages to find out what I'm talking about??


Little childish IMO

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

pretty sure that's what that feature is here for. Of course we're not all as educated as others.[:-]

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

What bio data are you referring to??


My goal is a healthy plentiful deer herd for everyone to enjoy. I want to see the deer numbers rebound to what they were years ago. The tag penalty is just one of many ways to help achieve this goal.



Taking away all tags could be for multiple offenses........I don't want to start a police state, just improve the deer count and make hunters a vital part of that. The last thing we need to do is take more does would be a correct statement if we didn't have a numbers problem and were just concerned with over all health and vitality of the herd. The best way to raise the numbers of the herd is to ease off the does for a little while. Every doe killed is 2-3 deer that won't be around next year.


You see........this little paragraph is exactly why your credibilty is near zero.

First of all if it was just me then there wouldn't be a problem. Wake up and realize that my exact words are being spoken by a very large percentage of hunters out there in NY today. The sooner you realize this the better off everyone will be. Keeping your head in the sand seems to be your answer instead.

Your personal insults, lack of anything substantial, refusal to answer questions, arrogance, dismissal of others as stupid, lies about what others have said, degree snobbing, "I'm better and smarter then all you" attitude..........and most of all your hypocrisy are so evident in all your posting that you can't hide it if you tried.

You come down on everyone immediately for having the balls to dare to question the almighty DEC and then you conduct yourself like this?? If you have proven nothing else.......at least we all got a good look at the attitudes a DEC worker has towards hunters in general.

Bravo


Are you ever gonna tell us what you do at the DEC??......probably not.

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

You are a comedian aren't you? You are a great representation of the DEC bro!! Keep up the good work the state is in good hands I am reassured of that now.

Do you have a superiority complex??

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

I call truce,nobody wins :(Anyone second the motion to let it go?

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

ME, ME, ME, ME:eek:

I guess we'll have to agree to disagree;)

TGK

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

I really don't like the idea of people being able to hunt all year long too many problems with it.

Atlas, Don't know if anyone asked this. How much would your program cost to implement?

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

DVD, What you ask won't happen in a way it's a good thing at least some people really care deeply about the sport.


BTW, I'm not saying you don't.

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

I don't know Charlie........it seems to me if you have DEC officers out doing field checks at processors and counting tags for 8 hours a day.......why can't you have them stay in one location and count all the mailed in ones?? With a bar code scanner it shouldn't take an extremely long time. The 37 cents for a stamp can be absorbed by the hunters and they raise the price of licenses so often no one would even flinch at another buck or two.........especially if they were told it was to help better assess the herd.

Either way Charlie it won't happen. IMO the DEC is thrilled with the current system and would not even entertain changing it. They are very happy to have a vague system based on guesswork so they can continue to preach how high the deer numbers are even though most hunters in the field don't agree. It's like a safety net for them..........if their inaccuracy ever gets exposed on a large scale they can always fall back on the limits of the system and say "It is the best we can do at this time" :eek:

The DEC wants the deer population reduced.........period. The more deer killed every year the happier they......no matter what the consequences are in the future. Their is no doubt about that. Their motivation for this??? You decide for yourself.

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

"I personnally know a dozen guys that don't call in there harvests on the DECALS system, and I am just 1 guy."

My apologies Atlasman. I took that as meaning you were 1 of the guys that doesn't call in his harvests.

But in all honesty sometimes we base to much on what we see, and too little of what we actually know. I'm no Mr. Know it all believe me. Like I said before I don't agree with everything the DEC does in this state. I don't just sit back, and except things for what they are. I contact my government officials, and DEC several times in the past fighting for what I believe is right. I'm also a member of several hunting organizations. I don't just write on this forum making complaints about others comments, and knowledge.
You did hit a nerve on law enforcement, because I'm employed in law enforcement. Just becasue all your dealings with ENCON may not have been as you expected, doesn't mean they are all bad. Think first of what they do. Unfortunately every basket does have a few bad apples, but that doesn't mean all are that way.
I also have a college education in Environmental Conservation( don't say it, another college boy), but that was 18yrs ago. I recall in those days the larger deer populations was a huge concern for environmental issues, and the carrying capacity of the land. Farming in this state is becoming harder, and harder. So we don't have the farms, and crops we had 20yrs ago, to help feed the herds in the winter. It also takes many yrs for the land to recover from over browsing. So I think the herd was in need of reducing, but at this point I believe some areas have been reduced too much. But the DEC themselves admit that on their website if you take the time to look!! The DEC did get behind the times some, and the DECALS system was a step in the right direction. The DEC also faces more adversity now then in yrs past. The anti hunter movement is stronger, insurance premiums have risen due in part to more car-deer accidents, farmers are complaining more of crop damage, becasue of higher costs to farm. Private hunting land has become much more difficult to obtain, due to everyones want of their own private piece, lawsuits, liabilities, and anti hunters.
So I don't think we can blame the DEC for everything involved in the deer population. Its much more difficult then that. Look at the WHOLE picture;)

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RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

So checking deer at processors is a waste of time and money?

Obviously the DEC is open to change this sysrem only went into effect two years ago, right. So they changed from a system they used for years.

Something tells me that's not a DEC officers responsibility. Do you have any proof that they sit around counting tags?

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

I think it is a waste of money if it is providing inaccurate data that in the end leads to false impressions of actual deer numbers.........this leads to too many tags being issued and even more depletion of a herd that is mistakenly or purposely presented as overflowing. That is a waste of more then time. For all we know the counting method may not even be the real problem........perhaps they know exactly what the deer herd is at and just keep telling everyone it is growing and growing so they buy more tags and kill even more deer.

Alloutdoors said previously that officers spend all day in processors counting and recording tag numbers to be checked against the call in list later on. Maybe he can clarify if that is true.

RE: DEC has it figured out!!
 

Your communication skills need some polish if that was meant as humor. Try adding a j/k or a couple smilies to let people know you are joking because otherwise it just reads dry........we aren't mind readers ya know ;)

If you think NYBH was commending your comedy you really should look up sarcasm when you're done with hypocrisy ;)





Well, when you're ready to be a big boy and tell us just let us know.


Sorry dude, I don't ever remember seeing your name before so I have no idea who you are or what you do...........if you're afraid or ashamed to admit it then just say so. No need for all the cloak and dagger stuff. :eek: