DEC has it figured out!!
04-08-2004 | 09:51 PM
#171
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,668
Likes: 0
From: NY
RE: DEC has it figured out!!
ORIGINAL: alloutdoors
Atlas I've been bending over backwards to answer all of your questions, you just don't like the answers so you choose to ignore them. As far as poor counting, don't even try and squirm out from under that one. You say the herd is dangerously low, the DEC on the other hand has been saying it is too high, and has finally started making some gains in reducing it the last couple years. Sounds like a counting discrepency to me. On top of that, every key issue involved in a proper management plan is going to revolve around establishing an accurate count. You can't make any management decisions without knowing how many deer are out there.
Atlas I've been bending over backwards to answer all of your questions, you just don't like the answers so you choose to ignore them. As far as poor counting, don't even try and squirm out from under that one. You say the herd is dangerously low, the DEC on the other hand has been saying it is too high, and has finally started making some gains in reducing it the last couple years. Sounds like a counting discrepency to me. On top of that, every key issue involved in a proper management plan is going to revolve around establishing an accurate count. You can't make any management decisions without knowing how many deer are out there.
Whatever the answer is it needs to be fixed.
Secondly, most of what I have been doing is explaining why I believe the DEC's numbers. You just don't want to hear the reasons. Their numbers are grounded in proven scientific methods. I have explained the how's and why's of those methods repeatedly. I have firsthand experience with the technique, I know it works. So don't give me any BS about not explaining why I believe their numbers.
I don't really know why you are so dismissive of the experience of hunters........especially guys like the ones on these boards who spend a great deal of time and effort into their hunting. Weekend warriors popping six packs and sleeping till 10 o'clock and back in the cabin by 1 is one thing but when you have people that show dedication and a solid knowledge of the woods they are in is another.
I know it's easy to get a cynical attitude when you have some experiences with a bunch of buttheads but there are hunters out there that know what they are talking about and can offer valuable opinions and help the DEC do a better job.......if only they would listen.
And lastly, the challenge that I proposed to you requires no special tools at all. You can do a decent job of coming up with all of that data with things that you already have in your possession. The only "special" tool you might need to pick up is a decent spotlight, and maybe you've got one of those already too. As far as the amount of time it would take (let's assume we are talking about a piece of land thats between 5 and 10 thousand acres), I know that I could personally tackle that on my own in about 1-2 months, working only on the weekends. Now from the sounds of it you hunt quite a bit more land than that, but if you can come up with some numbers on several thousand acres that will give a good starting point. So... if you spent even half the time on gathering some data as what you spend sitting at your computer ranting about the DEC, you could probably wrap the whole thing up in about 48 hrs. 
Ok, maybe not, but it is certainly within the realm of possibility that you could answer those questions. Really we would have something to work with if you just got us some actual deer density numbers, and if your interested I can tell you how to get that done in about five nights worth of work.
Ok, maybe not, but it is certainly within the realm of possibility that you could answer those questions. Really we would have something to work with if you just got us some actual deer density numbers, and if your interested I can tell you how to get that done in about five nights worth of work.
I just can't do it..........so I depend on the DEC to do it. After all it is THEIR job. I do mine and expect them to do theirs.
All I am asking is that you consider changing your attitude that everything the DEC says is wrong.
What would you say if I invited you over to 100 acres of my land and told you that their were TONS of deer in there........in fact their are so many that I am worried they may be overpopulated and damaging the forest with over browsing. I want you to go in there and kill as many as you can........PLEASE do me a favor and don't stop shooting until we reduce those numbers.
Now you scout the area and see some deer sign and figure out movement patterns and feeding and bedding areas and you place a few stands that will help you hunt the wind and different locations for morning and afternoons. You are all fired up and you pull up your bow and settle in for the stampede to begin..........a week later you haven't even seen a deer. You notice no deer in the fields as you arive or leave. A few days later you see a doe and a spike in the distance but that is all you see in two weeks of steady hunting. What would you say to me?? You would say dude.......I thought you said there were deer all over this place?? Now picture your reaction if I came back with "Man the deer in there are so dense that they are almost out of control...TRUST ME MAN, get back in there and whack 4 or 5 and call me to help you drag 'em. Day after day and week after week.........how long would you continue to hunt that area before you said to yourself "This guy either doesn't know what the hell he is talking about or he is lying to me for some reason" ???
04-08-2004 | 09:52 PM
#172
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,668
Likes: 0
From: NY
RE: DEC has it figured out!!
ORIGINAL: dvdegeorge
now now my mommy always told me name calling was a sign of ignorance[:'(]
Atlasman you are mad at the world Sorry you feel this way but CHILL we are all friendly here and on the same team
I'm guessing you are a child
Atlasman you are mad at the world Sorry you feel this way but CHILL we are all friendly here and on the same team
04-08-2004 | 09:56 PM
#173
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 4,668
Likes: 0
From: NY
RE: DEC has it figured out!!
ORIGINAL: doughboysigep
i'm not sure what you are exactly saying, but they do try and regulate population regionally (locally). that is what the DMUs are for. That is why some areas have high doe permit allocations and others have lower and some have none (why 7J has high second chance for a permit and 7M has no chance and why you can't shoot doe in the Adirondacks). Granted, some of that is do to hunting pressure, but the bottom line is that the doe permit allocations are meant to help decreas/balance the population.
I'm not sure if this is what you were talking about, but thought i'd mention it anyway.
I think the real problem is regional like someone else suggested. It is probably a difficult task to segrate each county with different management practices, but my God the areas that are not as dense as others could be a huge discrepancy!! It seems to me like they are taking the overpopulated regions and implementing management practices based on controlling those. Well what about the zones that are not as dense or struggling with their deer herd?? What happens to that population? It suffers in accordance with a blanket management program geared towards managing over populated areas. So basically they bring the numbers to an acceptable level in dense areas and mutilate the population in areas that are currentely struggling with the herd. Why cant' the bring balance to all zones involved??
I'm not sure if this is what you were talking about, but thought i'd mention it anyway.
Did you see the list last year??? OMG!! Practically every zone out there was HIGH-HIGH. I did see some restricted but very few.
All the zones I hunted were HIGH-HIGH and that is sad if they consider those areas ones that need the most tags filled as possible. I would hate to see what it's like in the restricted zones [
][:'(]
04-08-2004 | 11:03 PM
#177
Typical Buck
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 900
Likes: 0
From: WNY USA
RE: DEC has it figured out!!
alloutdoors,very eloquently stated.You have made your points and backed them with fact and have tried to stay civil and reasonable in this debate,it comes through in your posts.
04-09-2004 | 05:02 AM
#180
Thread Starter
Boone & Crockett
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 11,477
Likes: 0
From:
RE: DEC has it figured out!!
Hey, maybe we should all meet up at my place in Stueben County, Help lower the population down here, . LOL I know this nice little place opens at 3:00am for breakfeast on opening day,
My feelings wouldn't be hurt NOT hunting Cayuga County anymore.