ORIGINAL: alloutdoors
Atlas I've been bending over backwards to answer all of your questions, you just don't like the answers so you choose to ignore them. As far as poor counting, don't even try and squirm out from under that one. You say the herd is dangerously low, the DEC on the other hand has been saying it is too high, and has finally started making some gains in reducing it the last couple years. Sounds like a counting discrepency to me. On top of that, every key issue involved in a proper management plan is going to revolve around establishing an accurate count. You can't make any management decisions without knowing how many deer are out there.
It would make total sense if poor counting were to blame........it's where I would start looking that's for sure. It could be a bunch of other stuff as well that I have mentioned 10 times already.
Whatever the answer is it needs to be fixed.
Secondly, most of what I have been doing is explaining why I believe the DEC's numbers. You just don't want to hear the reasons. Their numbers are grounded in proven scientific methods. I have explained the how's and why's of those methods repeatedly. I have firsthand experience with the technique, I know it works. So don't give me any BS about not explaining why I believe their numbers.
I know you believe in the DEC methods. I would too if their data was somewhat in line with what you see in the woods year after year. Fluctuations are one thing but a gradual erosion of deer numbers to such a poor state while still seeing those areas treated like hot spots tends to make you think something is wrong somewhere.
I don't really know why you are so dismissive of the experience of hunters........especially guys like the ones on these boards who spend a great deal of time and effort into their hunting. Weekend warriors popping six packs and sleeping till 10 o'clock and back in the cabin by 1 is one thing but when you have people that show dedication and a solid knowledge of the woods they are in is another.
I know it's easy to get a cynical attitude when you have some experiences with a bunch of buttheads but there are hunters out there that know what they are talking about and can offer valuable opinions and help the DEC do a better job.......if only they would listen.
And lastly, the challenge that I proposed to you requires no special tools at all. You can do a decent job of coming up with all of that data with things that you already have in your possession. The only "special" tool you might need to pick up is a decent spotlight, and maybe you've got one of those already too. As far as the amount of time it would take (let's assume we are talking about a piece of land thats between 5 and 10 thousand acres), I know that I could personally tackle that on my own in about 1-2 months, working only on the weekends. Now from the sounds of it you hunt quite a bit more land than that, but if you can come up with some numbers on several thousand acres that will give a good starting point. So... if you spent even half the time on gathering some data as what you spend sitting at your computer ranting about the DEC, you could probably wrap the whole thing up in about 48 hrs.
Ok, maybe not, but it is certainly within the realm of possibility that you could answer those questions. Really we would have something to work with if you just got us some actual deer density numbers, and if your interested I can tell you how to get that done in about five nights worth of work.
Dude........I'm lucky I get a couple hours of daylight to myself every day. I own my own office, have to care for a full acre of landscaped property with 2 ponds, have 2 dogs, a wife and add scouting, small game, turkey, the gym, and practicing with a bow, shotgun and muzzleloader and I am surprised if I have enough time to pinch a loaf let alone sample the deer populations for 200 miles in every direction.......my closest hunting spot is an hour drive one way.
I just can't do it..........so I depend on the DEC to do it. After all it is THEIR job. I do mine and expect them to do theirs.
All I am asking is that you consider changing your attitude that everything the DEC says is wrong.
Once again you will have to show me where I said this. I don't have a problem with everything the DEC says or does. I don't have a problem with the DEC at all. I DO have a problem with the DEC preaching a growing herd to everybody when it doesn't match what hunters are seeing every year. Fix that problem and I will be on this board praising the DEC for once again doing a good job.
What would you say if I invited you over to 100 acres of my land and told you that their were TONS of deer in there........in fact their are so many that I am worried they may be overpopulated and damaging the forest with over browsing. I want you to go in there and kill as many as you can........PLEASE do me a favor and don't stop shooting until we reduce those numbers.
Now you scout the area and see some deer sign and figure out movement patterns and feeding and bedding areas and you place a few stands that will help you hunt the wind and different locations for morning and afternoons. You are all fired up and you pull up your bow and settle in for the stampede to begin..........a week later you haven't even seen a deer. You notice no deer in the fields as you arive or leave. A few days later you see a doe and a spike in the distance but that is all you see in two weeks of steady hunting. What would you say to me?? You would say dude.......I thought you said there were deer all over this place?? Now picture your reaction if I came back with "Man the deer in there are so dense that they are almost out of control...TRUST ME MAN, get back in there and whack 4 or 5 and call me to help you drag 'em. Day after day and week after week.........how long would you continue to hunt that area before you said to yourself "This guy either doesn't know what the hell he is talking about or he is lying to me for some reason" ???