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-   -   NY AR expansion... NOT! (https://www.huntingnet.com/forum/northeast/297653-ny-ar-expansion-not.html)

bluebird2 07-12-2009 01:35 PM


Those quotes are clearly wrong. As far as the experts, the jury is still out on them.
You have posted absolutely nothing to show my posts were wrong. You are simply stating your uninformed opinion. More states have repealed statewide antler point restrictions than states that currently have them. BTW, all of the research shows the spikes saved by ARs develop antlers at a slower rate than 1.5 6 or 8 pts..

crokit 07-12-2009 02:45 PM


Originally Posted by bluebird2 (Post 3382191)
Did you mean the "genetic" make up of the herd? If so the exact opposite is more likely to occur since ARs are the exact opposite of natural selection.

This is your response to BAWANAJIM's post on the FIRST page of this thread.


It's the converse/inverse issue. Coverse/inverse. Obviously you either don't understand or are oblivious to what you your self wrote and the reading comprehension that is needed to understand converse/inverse issues. Happy hunting down there in Pa., :cool15:

crokit 07-12-2009 02:55 PM


Originally Posted by crokit (Post 3382799)
Simply commenting on your quotes that I listed two posts ago, quotes regarding natural selection. Those quotes are clearly wrong. :party0007: As far as the experts, the jury is still out on them.

P.S.: Just a little advice: One of the greatest deficiencies a man can have is the inability to admit he's wrong.


Originally Posted by bluebird2 (Post 3382813)
You have posted absolutely nothing to show my posts were wrong. You are simply stating your uninformed opinion. More states have repealed statewide antler point restrictions than states that currently have them. BTW, all of the research shows the spikes saved by ARs develop antlers at a slower rate than 1.5 6 or 8 pts..

Nice try at the typical bait and switch moves you employ throughout your history on this site.. As stated above and earlier posts, my issue is with your response to BAWANAJIM'S post on the first page. and your reference to natural selection. Not whether spikes grow up to be 8pts-LMAO- or states repealing AR restrictions-LMAOAY-Actually, it's a terrible try at bait and switch. All your practice at it, frankly I'm shocked that would provide such a sloppy sample. You cannot intelligently[ which is probably why you did in the first place ] argue that natural selection is benefited by either of AR positions. Killing the deer with rifles/bows, regardless of the AR or not, takes the issue out of the realm of NATURAL selection. Now, do you get it?

Please make a prophet out of me by posting an example of Lincoln's definition of a fool.

crokit 07-12-2009 03:17 PM


Originally Posted by bluebird2 (Post 3382191)
Did you mean the "genetic" make up of the herd? If so the exact opposite is more likely to occur since ARs are the exact opposite of natural selection.

And so are NON-AR's, or any other manner in which humans cull the herd. Remember: NATURAL. your Use of the mention of Natural Selection in your arguement against AR's, does not make sense. Now do you get it?

bluebird2 07-12-2009 03:19 PM

If you were half as smart as you think you are you would realize that I never said either harvest method benefited natural selection. I simply said ARs were the direct opposite of natural selection and you have provided absolutely nothing to refute that fact. Natural selection would not remove the best buck from each age class like AR does, but I guess your bias prevents you from seeing the obvious.

crokit 07-12-2009 03:30 PM

I know good ol' Abe has got to be having a good laugh right now along side Darwin.:lolabove: :lmao::rolleyes:

bluebird2 07-12-2009 03:37 PM

Once again you have provided nothing but mindless babble to support your position. The simple fact is you can't provide a single fact or study that shows ARs improves the genetics of the herd.

bowtruck 07-12-2009 04:08 PM

In the central Adirondack region of New York, pioneer researcher William Severinghaus reported that more than 50 percent of the yearling bucks he examined in the late 1940s carried spike antlers less than 3 inches long. At the same time, he found fewer than 3 percent short-spikes among yearlings from the western Adirondacks where deer had better nutrition.
Likewise, in the flatwood country of northwestern Florida, Steve Shea and his coworkers found that 78 percent of the yearling bucks grew spike antlers less than 5 inches long. Despite a 75 percent decline in deer numbers, body and antler size among yearlings did not improve because of the low-quality forage growing on the infertile soil.
There is no denying that antler development is hereditary to some extent. However, the true genetic effects are often obscured by nutrition, maternal effects, and a host of other factors. And don't forget, the mother contributes half of the genes for antlers. As a result, the genetic basis of variation in antlers is complex and poorly understood.
The premise behind spike culling is that yearling bucks with spike antlers are genetically inferior and will never attain quality antlers typical of yearlings that grow forked antlers. Can selection against spike bucks be effective in changing the genetic character of the herd?

Not so says Harry Jacobson. To the contrary, he observed that spike antlered yearlings in his Mississippi research pens frequently grew exceptionally large antlers at maturity.

Jacobson and Texas A&M animal geneticist Steven Lukefahr teamed up, using a special computer program, to determine the genetic and environmental factors responsible for antler traits of 220 yearling bucks Jacobson had raised at his research facility.

In a nutshell, this research revealed that genetics accounted for only 5 percent of spike antler traits recorded among yearlings. Instead, the doe's nurturing ability and care of her offspring was more important, accounting for 29 percent to 34 percent of the variation in the yearling's antler points, spread, weight and beam length.

Jacobson and Lukefahr concluded the following: "Our results do not support the use of yearling antler records as criteria for selective breeding management or harvest schemes to alter the genetic quality of a white-tailed deer population."

More recently, Mitchell Lockwood and his cohorts from the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department completed an 8-year study to determine how genetic and environmental factors interact to influence yearling buck antler quality — and produced results different from those of Jacobson and Lukefahr.

In the Texas experiments, buck fawns were nutritionally stressed by being fed a restricted (half-ration) diet consisting of only 8 percent protein. Each year they then selected the best antlered yearling bucks as sires, to determine if such selective breeding would yield yearling bucks with superior antlers in subsequent years.

From 1993 to 1999, such selection produced improvements in all recorded antler measurements. For example, average Boone and Crockett yearling buck antler scores increased by 36.4 inches.

According to Lockwood and his group, "Our findings clearly indicate that under constant suboptimal environmental conditions, phenotypic change in antler quality can be realized with intensive selective harvest of yearling males."

These same researchers, and others, also contest the idea of protecting only small antlered deer from harvest, because it allows the harvest of yearlings with superior antlers but protects even older bucks with poor antlers. This (high-grading) tends to degrade antler quality in subsequent years.

Instead, they favor the so-called "slot-limit" approach, which protects medium-sized bucks. Such a harvest strategy allows for harvesting mature bucks with antlers larger than some pre-determined spread, and encourages the harvest of the poorest quality young bucks with unbranched antlers. At the same time this protects the best quality young bucks and minimizes the adverse effects of high-grading.

Conclusions

Clearly, many factors can interact to determine the quality of yearling buck antlers. Although inheritance of antler traits may be important, genetic effects are often masked by a multitude of environmental influences.

In my view, variations in climate, nutrition, social behavior, birth date and nurturing, as well as other factors that impact the young male's rate of sexual maturity, are more important than genetics in determining the quality of a buck's first set of antlers.

Ironically, after more than three decades of study, there still seems to be little agreement among researchers as to the relationship between the quality of a buck's antlers at yearling age versus those grown at maturity — probably because the animal's response varies regionally.

crokit 07-12-2009 04:38 PM


Originally Posted by bluebird2 (Post 3382878)
Once again you have provided nothing but mindless babble to support your position. The simple fact is you can't provide a single fact or study that shows ARs improves the genetics of the herd.


Frankly, I haven't tried to, and it wasn't the topic of the thread. That wasn't the issue, as you well know. You high jack as poorly as you bait and switch. I was responding to, simply your erroneous use of the term " NATURAL SELECTION " in your argument against AR's. Let me guess, you also carry around a pocket full of box cutters??

CORNELIUS: I feel for you, man. The opponents of AR in Pa. need not look any farther than BLUEBIRDS posts in this thread as to an ingredient of why AR's were not defeated, especially if others were mixing apples and oranges with such blindness. Personally, although I supported it here in NY, it really doesn't matter to ME one way or another, as I practice a more restrictive AR than any proposal. I'm just fortunate that the areas I hunt, there's a very good chance that the ones I pass will be around next season.

crokit 07-12-2009 04:40 PM

BOWTRUCK: Thank you for bringing an intelligent end to an otherwise highjacked thread:hail:


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