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NY AR expansion... NOT!
Just got my copy of New York Outdoor News and the lead story is that the DEC has decided to scrap a plan to expand AR regulations into more wildlife management units sighting that department biologists "see no specific management benefit associated with the antler restriction program and do not consider antler restrictions as necessary to improve herd condition".
Grannis called the issue one of hunter preference, and said hunters are "deeply divided"on the issue. I applaud the DEC's decision! Hunters are free to impose whatever restrictions they want on themselves but when they attempt to push their preference on others, NO is the right response. Thanks again DEC for having what it takes to stand up against the pressure. |
I think your missing a great opportunity for some incredible hunting.
AR's in PA would of been the greatest thing to happen to this state if it had not been coupled with a plan that has reduced the herd to levels many find unnecessary. IF Kids a seniors are omitted I see no reason not to let the age of the herd to increase and with this age a better generic make up of the herd will surface. I do see your point about over regulation but I have seen the results here in PA and we are shooting some great bucks.:wave: |
They started a no spike rule here in Vt and I can tell you it is way better hunting than it has been for years. Lots of 2 1/2 year old and up when before 80% of the kill was yearlings.
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I agree with Jim. I like the antler restrictions, but the excessive herd reduction has killed alot of the benefit in many areas.
If New York were thinking of AR without extreme and excessive herd reduction along with it, Id say you couldnt go wrong. With all the hr though.... Tell them to take a hike. |
I go back and forth on this issue but I think the DEC got this right. I think that if someone gets a kick out of shooting pencil horned spikes year after year they should be allowed to do it, especially on their own property. IF for example the AR's were imposed only on State Land i would support that because the State owns it and they have a compelling interest in seeing how the resource is managed. But as far as mandating how someone has to hunt on their own property, i think that goes a little too far.
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I was hoping for the restrictions. I let my State reps know that. Oh well.
GMIL6184: Good point about your own property vs. state land.:cool2: |
Statewide habitat and herd numbers very far too widely to have a one size fits all approach.
In that article, the AR proponents are claiming 67% of the NYS hunters favor AR. If thats the case, who is it shooting all the 1 1/2 old bucks every year? That other 33% must be some darn great hunters. Steve |
I see no reason not to let the age of the herd to increase and with this age a better generic make up of the herd will surface. |
Could the Pa guys who have argued for 100's of threads and 1000's of repeated posts under who knows how many alter ego screen names, let the NY hunters have one thread to debate amongst themselves? You obviously can neither fix or agree on what Pa needs/doesn't need/wants or has done - how can you possibly hope to offer anything of value to NYer's?
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Originally Posted by bluebird2
(Post 3382191)
Did you mean the "genetic" make up of the herd? If so the exact opposite is more likely to occur since ARs are the exact opposite of natural selection.
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Originally Posted by crokit
(Post 3382240)
LMAO!! As if shooting small buck is considered natural selection. You need an edumacation.:violin::sad0064::sad0064:. No disrespect to the younger hunters meant, but Bluebird2, I figure you can't be more than 17-18??
ARs select the bucks that are legal to be harvested based on one genetic trait and that is the rate of antler development. Therefore, the bucks with the best genes for the rate of antler development are legal and are harvested leaving bucks with inferior genes for the rate of antler development to survive and become dominant breeders. |
Additionally, the adult deer sex ratio prior to the breeding season in southeastern New York currently averages about 2.3 adult females to adult males. This level is more than adequate to achieve great breeding success and is much more balanced than the claims made by some antler restriction proponents in comments received for this rulemaking. |
"let the NY hunters have one thread to debate amongst themselves?"
And you havent posted in any of the PENNSYLVANIA threads...?? "You obviously can neither fix or agree on what Pa needs/doesn't need/wants or has done -" Not our (the hunters) fault. Its up to management to fix. We are doing our part as much as we can. They arent doing theirs. " how can you possibly hope to offer anything of value to NYer's?" Its called experience...Ar....Hr...Pa has been there, done that. Id say if nothing else we've learned more than a little in the process. Pennsylvania is one of few states who has that experience. |
Its called experience...Ar....Hr...Pa has been there, done that. Id say if nothing else we've learned more than a little in the process. Pennsylvania is one of few states who has that experience Yeh - I want to see that "experiance" brought to NY. I have a few posts in the the Pa threads - they dominate the NE like a broken record. But most are to poke fun of the same ole stuff day after day after day. Maybe 10 to 15 of you (less if you count multiple screen names) - most with incomplete profiles, with 1000's of the same name calling BS - and I've yet to see anyone change their mind or even admit another's point might be valid. So keep your "experiance" and let us blindly try to figure it out on our own. We can't screw it up any more then some of you think your state has. Steve |
Did you read the report from the NY DEC?
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Originally Posted by bluebird2
(Post 3382191)
Did you mean the "genetic" make up of the herd? If so the exact opposite is more likely to occur since ARs are the exact opposite of natural selection.
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Nysteve, Ive posted on New York threads once or twice EVER. Youve made a nuissance of yourself in the Pa threads more than often enough. I had intended to give my opinion from experience here, and make that the only post, until you chose to run your mouth.
I also dont care what you think of Pennsylvanians or dont care who uses "multiple id's", if you suspect someone is, take it up with administration. Only one I know of definately doing so has not posted to this thread. And we posters have no control over the actions of other posters and the actions of one or two shouldnt be blamed among the rest. Unlike you in the Pa threads, I am posting constructively on this topic (or at least was until you began flapping your gums about noone from Pa being allowed to post this thread! lmao) so......Shut yer pie-hole. |
A non-AR harvest is a random harvest of all bucks with one antler 3" or longer. It does not favor the harvest of bigger buck or protect inferior buck.
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Corne the nyers have been seeing pa threads on this topic for years now.
You think you got new insight for them now? I think we have said enough in the pa threads IMHO |
What makes you think everyone reads all of the Pa threads? I dont read most of the NY threads. Only reason I read this one is because it had something in common with us in the title.
Now if anyone else would like to add who should or shouldnt be allowed to make a post on differing threads, please start your own. I think this one has been hijacked enough dont you? |
Originally Posted by crokit
(Post 3382306)
How is NON ar natural selection if AR, in your words,is the exact opposite of natural selection. I'm waiting on the edge of my seat with bated breath.
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Blue bird: Only you could believe that you answered this post with your post 3 posts ago. |
Originally Posted by crokit
(Post 3382306)
How is NON ar natural selection if AR, in your words,is the exact opposite of natural selection. I'm waiting on the edge of my seat with bated breath.
Originally Posted by bluebird2
(Post 3382310)
A non-AR harvest is a random harvest of all bucks with one antler 3" or longer. It does not favor the harvest of bigger buck or protect inferior buck.
Originally Posted by crokit
(Post 3382383)
Blue bird: Only you could believe that you answered this post with your post 3 posts ago.
Originally Posted by bluebird2
(Post 3382504)
Just what were you trying to say? I can't quite figure it out.
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Thank you Bowtruck for your understanding.
Never said I was wanting to determine who could post or not - asked for a little consideration from those dominating the NE forum. Corny - your hot air will keep the Pa whoa is me threads sailing for a long time. Steve |
Blue bird: Only you could believe that you answered this post with your post 3 posts ago. |
Oh. Asking for a little consideration... Is that what you call this whiney drivel and your other posts just like it??
"Could the Pa guys who have argued for 100's of threads and 1000's of repeated posts under who knows how many alter ego screen names, let the NY hunters have one thread to debate amongst themselves? You obviously can neither fix or agree on what Pa needs/doesn't need/wants or has done - how can you possibly hope to offer anything of value to NYer's?" Stevey, I think you need to get this through your skull: You do not dictate who posts...Where they post....or what they post. So you can take your little bossy Napolean complex and shove it. You try that crap on other boards too, unsuccessfully. Btw, howd that attitude work for you and buddies over on Griz garys board? Seems he finally got tired of of the b.s. and put some of the biggest whiners in their place. I guess some never learn. |
I found it interesting that the DEC report showed NY hunters raised the same issues for and against ARs as PA hunters. The big difference is that DEC told the truth about ARs while the PGC sold ARs to PA hunters based on lies.
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Originally Posted by bawanajim
(Post 3382090)
I think your missing a great opportunity for some incredible hunting.
I see no reason not to let the age of the herd to increase and with this age a better generic make up of the herd will surface. .:wave:
Originally Posted by bluebird2
(Post 3382191)
Did you mean the "genetic" make up of the herd? If so the exact opposite is more likely to occur since ARs are the exact opposite of natural selection.
You state that the opposite of " a BETTER genetic make-up will occur ". That can only mean, at least to us in NY State, that you are saying a WORSE genetic make-up will occur. You know, opposite of BETTER. If AR's have that effect, as you say, then non- AR's HAVE to have at least that effect. Unless, of course, in a non-ar region, hunters are allowing all breeding age buck to pass. Let's see, I'm hunting in a non-AR zone, and I have the choice of shooting that small 8pt, or that crotch horn next to him. Yup, your right, I'm Naturally selecting the crotch horn. LMAOAYDS. You got any more of that $hit?, or is it " one dog, one bone " |
It not as simple as you might like to think it is and the experts disagree with you. The big difference is ARs protect the smallest buck in each age class while a non-AR harvest make all antlered buck with at least 3" spike legal.
Here is what happened as a result of 12 years of ARs in Miss. MDWFP DEER COMMITTEE Chad M.Dacus Deer Program Coordinator (601) 432-2177 • [email protected] William T.McKinley Why not the 4-Point Law? Research conducted by the MDWFP and Mississippi State University indicates the 4-point law has reduced the antler size of harvested 2.5 and 3.5 year old bucks across the state. Researchers and biologists believe the 4-point law allows the harvest of better quality yearling bucks, while protecting lesser quality spikes and 3- point bucks. The result has been a decrease in antler size within age classes of older bucks. The combination ofthe 4-point law, high hunting pressure, and lower reproduction has resulted in the over-harvest of bucks and decreased antler size in deer herds across Mississippi. |
Simply commenting on your quotes that I listed two posts ago, quotes regarding natural selection. Those quotes are clearly wrong. :party0007: As far as the experts, the jury is still out on them.
P.S.: Just a little advice: One of the greatest deficiencies a man can have is the inability to admit he's wrong. |
Those quotes are clearly wrong. As far as the experts, the jury is still out on them. |
Originally Posted by bluebird2
(Post 3382191)
Did you mean the "genetic" make up of the herd? If so the exact opposite is more likely to occur since ARs are the exact opposite of natural selection.
It's the converse/inverse issue. Coverse/inverse. Obviously you either don't understand or are oblivious to what you your self wrote and the reading comprehension that is needed to understand converse/inverse issues. Happy hunting down there in Pa., :cool15: |
Originally Posted by crokit
(Post 3382799)
Simply commenting on your quotes that I listed two posts ago, quotes regarding natural selection. Those quotes are clearly wrong. :party0007: As far as the experts, the jury is still out on them.
P.S.: Just a little advice: One of the greatest deficiencies a man can have is the inability to admit he's wrong.
Originally Posted by bluebird2
(Post 3382813)
You have posted absolutely nothing to show my posts were wrong. You are simply stating your uninformed opinion. More states have repealed statewide antler point restrictions than states that currently have them. BTW, all of the research shows the spikes saved by ARs develop antlers at a slower rate than 1.5 6 or 8 pts..
Please make a prophet out of me by posting an example of Lincoln's definition of a fool. |
Originally Posted by bluebird2
(Post 3382191)
Did you mean the "genetic" make up of the herd? If so the exact opposite is more likely to occur since ARs are the exact opposite of natural selection.
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If you were half as smart as you think you are you would realize that I never said either harvest method benefited natural selection. I simply said ARs were the direct opposite of natural selection and you have provided absolutely nothing to refute that fact. Natural selection would not remove the best buck from each age class like AR does, but I guess your bias prevents you from seeing the obvious.
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I know good ol' Abe has got to be having a good laugh right now along side Darwin.:lolabove: :lmao::rolleyes:
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Once again you have provided nothing but mindless babble to support your position. The simple fact is you can't provide a single fact or study that shows ARs improves the genetics of the herd.
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In the central Adirondack region of New York, pioneer researcher William Severinghaus reported that more than 50 percent of the yearling bucks he examined in the late 1940s carried spike antlers less than 3 inches long. At the same time, he found fewer than 3 percent short-spikes among yearlings from the western Adirondacks where deer had better nutrition.
Likewise, in the flatwood country of northwestern Florida, Steve Shea and his coworkers found that 78 percent of the yearling bucks grew spike antlers less than 5 inches long. Despite a 75 percent decline in deer numbers, body and antler size among yearlings did not improve because of the low-quality forage growing on the infertile soil. There is no denying that antler development is hereditary to some extent. However, the true genetic effects are often obscured by nutrition, maternal effects, and a host of other factors. And don't forget, the mother contributes half of the genes for antlers. As a result, the genetic basis of variation in antlers is complex and poorly understood. The premise behind spike culling is that yearling bucks with spike antlers are genetically inferior and will never attain quality antlers typical of yearlings that grow forked antlers. Can selection against spike bucks be effective in changing the genetic character of the herd? Not so says Harry Jacobson. To the contrary, he observed that spike antlered yearlings in his Mississippi research pens frequently grew exceptionally large antlers at maturity. Jacobson and Texas A&M animal geneticist Steven Lukefahr teamed up, using a special computer program, to determine the genetic and environmental factors responsible for antler traits of 220 yearling bucks Jacobson had raised at his research facility. In a nutshell, this research revealed that genetics accounted for only 5 percent of spike antler traits recorded among yearlings. Instead, the doe's nurturing ability and care of her offspring was more important, accounting for 29 percent to 34 percent of the variation in the yearling's antler points, spread, weight and beam length. Jacobson and Lukefahr concluded the following: "Our results do not support the use of yearling antler records as criteria for selective breeding management or harvest schemes to alter the genetic quality of a white-tailed deer population." More recently, Mitchell Lockwood and his cohorts from the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department completed an 8-year study to determine how genetic and environmental factors interact to influence yearling buck antler quality — and produced results different from those of Jacobson and Lukefahr. In the Texas experiments, buck fawns were nutritionally stressed by being fed a restricted (half-ration) diet consisting of only 8 percent protein. Each year they then selected the best antlered yearling bucks as sires, to determine if such selective breeding would yield yearling bucks with superior antlers in subsequent years. From 1993 to 1999, such selection produced improvements in all recorded antler measurements. For example, average Boone and Crockett yearling buck antler scores increased by 36.4 inches. According to Lockwood and his group, "Our findings clearly indicate that under constant suboptimal environmental conditions, phenotypic change in antler quality can be realized with intensive selective harvest of yearling males." These same researchers, and others, also contest the idea of protecting only small antlered deer from harvest, because it allows the harvest of yearlings with superior antlers but protects even older bucks with poor antlers. This (high-grading) tends to degrade antler quality in subsequent years. Instead, they favor the so-called "slot-limit" approach, which protects medium-sized bucks. Such a harvest strategy allows for harvesting mature bucks with antlers larger than some pre-determined spread, and encourages the harvest of the poorest quality young bucks with unbranched antlers. At the same time this protects the best quality young bucks and minimizes the adverse effects of high-grading. Conclusions Clearly, many factors can interact to determine the quality of yearling buck antlers. Although inheritance of antler traits may be important, genetic effects are often masked by a multitude of environmental influences. In my view, variations in climate, nutrition, social behavior, birth date and nurturing, as well as other factors that impact the young male's rate of sexual maturity, are more important than genetics in determining the quality of a buck's first set of antlers. Ironically, after more than three decades of study, there still seems to be little agreement among researchers as to the relationship between the quality of a buck's antlers at yearling age versus those grown at maturity — probably because the animal's response varies regionally. |
Originally Posted by bluebird2
(Post 3382878)
Once again you have provided nothing but mindless babble to support your position. The simple fact is you can't provide a single fact or study that shows ARs improves the genetics of the herd.
Frankly, I haven't tried to, and it wasn't the topic of the thread. That wasn't the issue, as you well know. You high jack as poorly as you bait and switch. I was responding to, simply your erroneous use of the term " NATURAL SELECTION " in your argument against AR's. Let me guess, you also carry around a pocket full of box cutters?? CORNELIUS: I feel for you, man. The opponents of AR in Pa. need not look any farther than BLUEBIRDS posts in this thread as to an ingredient of why AR's were not defeated, especially if others were mixing apples and oranges with such blindness. Personally, although I supported it here in NY, it really doesn't matter to ME one way or another, as I practice a more restrictive AR than any proposal. I'm just fortunate that the areas I hunt, there's a very good chance that the ones I pass will be around next season. |
BOWTRUCK: Thank you for bringing an intelligent end to an otherwise highjacked thread:hail:
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