WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
06-20-2009, 06:27 PM
#21
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Morgantown WV USA
Posts: 108
RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
Jeff
you can harvest 6 deer in zone C, 4 deer in zone B, and 2 deer in zone A.
That adds up to 12. The fact that you can't count higher than you have fingers makes me wonder how you own a mortgage comp. I assume this was a family business or you married into it.
Wv Gino
you can harvest 6 deer in zone C, 4 deer in zone B, and 2 deer in zone A.
That adds up to 12. The fact that you can't count higher than you have fingers makes me wonder how you own a mortgage comp. I assume this was a family business or you married into it.
Wv Gino
06-20-2009, 06:46 PM
#22
Typical Buck
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 584
RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
ORIGINAL: Cornelius08
"Almost all Eastern states with the exception of NE states are now this liberal with bag limits on deer."
Not ONE other eastern state has even close to 900,000 hunters and deer densities as low as ours along with them.
I also have no problems with any state including pa being able to harvest as many deer per person as tags are available going from wmu to wmu. Problem is, many wmus should have lower allocations. It is fine to get say 4 doe tags if you want to hunt 3 or 4 wmus and they are available. Its quite another when you can get 2 three or 4 in ONE wmu here in Pa where the added harvest is far from needed.
"Almost all Eastern states with the exception of NE states are now this liberal with bag limits on deer."
Not ONE other eastern state has even close to 900,000 hunters and deer densities as low as ours along with them.
I also have no problems with any state including pa being able to harvest as many deer per person as tags are available going from wmu to wmu. Problem is, many wmus should have lower allocations. It is fine to get say 4 doe tags if you want to hunt 3 or 4 wmus and they are available. Its quite another when you can get 2 three or 4 in ONE wmu here in Pa where the added harvest is far from needed.
You are correct that no other state, not only in the eastern U.S., but anywhere in the nation has as many hunters as what we have in Pennsylvania. Why isn’t that considered as a positive thing instead of a negative?
But, you keep repeatedly making this claim that all the other states have higher deer densities and based on some research I just did I find that statement to be both FALSE and misleading.
Not all of the surrounding states express a deer population estimate, just like Pennsylvania no longer provides to the public. But I am going to post the deer density estimates for the surrounding states that did release an estimate. Since the states all vary in size and to make it comparable for all of the states I have reduced their deer population estimates to deer per square mile.
Here is the various state deer population estimates in deer per square mile of land mass:
State…………………..deer/sq. mile…………………….deer harvest/sq. mile
Ohio……………………..14.7.…………… ……………….........6.15
Virginia………………….25.3.…………… ……………….........6.41
Michigan………………..30.0.……………†¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦..........4.79
New York……………….21.2.…………………⠀¦â€¦â€¦â€¦..........4.72
Wisconsin……………….18.4.……………†¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦..........5.10
Maryland………………..25.6.……………†¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦..........9.43
Pennsylvania……………………………….. ................................7.41
Now, if we figured Pennsylvania at an extremely low estimated deer populatoin of only one million deer the number per square mile would be 22.3 deer per square mile. That is a deer population that is very much in line with all of the other states.
Of course the deer are not distributed evenly over the landscape of any state. Some areas have better habitat and thus have more deer. Other areas have no deer because there is no deer habitat. I am sure that fact is true in each of the states.
But, the bottom line is that Pennsylvania deer populations are obviously very much in line with the other states or our deer harvests couldn’t be sustained at the high levels they are.
As for those Deer Chronicles I think everyone should read them with an open mind, maybe they could learn something.
R.S. Bodenhorn
06-20-2009, 07:00 PM
#23
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: SW PA USA
Posts: 7,220
RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
Interesting that while some here claim that 2A has been decimated, it ranks third from the bottom in regeneration and second to last (by one one hundredth of a percent) in embryos per adult doe.
Sounds like old 2A needs some more does killed ASAP.
Sounds like old 2A needs some more does killed ASAP.
06-20-2009, 07:14 PM
#24
Typical Buck
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Westmoreland County PA.
Posts: 735
RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
ORIGINAL: bluebird2
In 2008 the forest health in both 2G and 2F were rated poor. Now 2F is rated fair even though regeneration is only 1% higher than 2G. It is also interesting to note than regeneration in 2F increased from 34% in 2007 to 39% in 2008,while 2G decreased from 42% in 2007 to 38% in 2008. Can you explain why it increased in 2F even though 2F has a lot more deer than 2G?
Even the best song becomes tiresome if heard too often.
[/align]
06-20-2009, 08:21 PM
#25
Typical Buck
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location:
Posts: 659
RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
ORIGINAL: R.S.B.
You are correct that no other state, not only in the eastern U.S., but anywhere in the nation has as many hunters as what we have in Pennsylvania. Why isn’t that considered as a positive thing instead of a negative?
But, you keep repeatedly making this claim that all the other states have higher deer densities and based on some research I just did I find that statement to be both FALSE and misleading.
Not all of the surrounding states express a deer population estimate, just like Pennsylvania no longer provides to the public. But I am going to post the deer density estimates for the surrounding states that did release an estimate. Since the states all vary in size and to make it comparable for all of the states I have reduced their deer population estimates to deer per square mile.
Here is the various state deer population estimates in deer per square mile of land mass:
State…………………..deer/sq. mile…………………….deer harvest/sq. mile
Ohio……………………..14.7.…………… ……………….........6.15
Virginia………………….25.3.…………… ……………….........6.41
Michigan………………..30.0.……………†¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦..........4.79
New York……………….21.2.…………………⠀¦â€¦â€¦â€¦..........4.72
Wisconsin……………….18.4.……………†¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦..........5.10
Maryland………………..25.6.……………†¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦..........9.43
Pennsylvania……………………………….. ................................7.41
Now, if we figured Pennsylvania at an extremely low estimated deer populatoin of only one million deer the number per square mile would be 22.3 deer per square mile. That is a deer population that is very much in line with all of the other states.
Of course the deer are not distributed evenly over the landscape of any state. Some areas have better habitat and thus have more deer. Other areas have no deer because there is no deer habitat. I am sure that fact is true in each of the states.
But, the bottom line is that Pennsylvania deer populations are obviously very much in line with the other states or our deer harvests couldn’t be sustained at the high levels they are.
As for those Deer Chronicles I think everyone should read them with an open mind, maybe they could learn something.
R.S. Bodenhorn
ORIGINAL: Cornelius08
"Almost all Eastern states with the exception of NE states are now this liberal with bag limits on deer."
Not ONE other eastern state has even close to 900,000 hunters and deer densities as low as ours along with them.
I also have no problems with any state including pa being able to harvest as many deer per person as tags are available going from wmu to wmu. Problem is, many wmus should have lower allocations. It is fine to get say 4 doe tags if you want to hunt 3 or 4 wmus and they are available. Its quite another when you can get 2 three or 4 in ONE wmu here in Pa where the added harvest is far from needed.
"Almost all Eastern states with the exception of NE states are now this liberal with bag limits on deer."
Not ONE other eastern state has even close to 900,000 hunters and deer densities as low as ours along with them.
I also have no problems with any state including pa being able to harvest as many deer per person as tags are available going from wmu to wmu. Problem is, many wmus should have lower allocations. It is fine to get say 4 doe tags if you want to hunt 3 or 4 wmus and they are available. Its quite another when you can get 2 three or 4 in ONE wmu here in Pa where the added harvest is far from needed.
You are correct that no other state, not only in the eastern U.S., but anywhere in the nation has as many hunters as what we have in Pennsylvania. Why isn’t that considered as a positive thing instead of a negative?
But, you keep repeatedly making this claim that all the other states have higher deer densities and based on some research I just did I find that statement to be both FALSE and misleading.
Not all of the surrounding states express a deer population estimate, just like Pennsylvania no longer provides to the public. But I am going to post the deer density estimates for the surrounding states that did release an estimate. Since the states all vary in size and to make it comparable for all of the states I have reduced their deer population estimates to deer per square mile.
Here is the various state deer population estimates in deer per square mile of land mass:
State…………………..deer/sq. mile…………………….deer harvest/sq. mile
Ohio……………………..14.7.…………… ……………….........6.15
Virginia………………….25.3.…………… ……………….........6.41
Michigan………………..30.0.……………†¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦..........4.79
New York……………….21.2.…………………⠀¦â€¦â€¦â€¦..........4.72
Wisconsin……………….18.4.……………†¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦..........5.10
Maryland………………..25.6.……………†¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦â€¦..........9.43
Pennsylvania……………………………….. ................................7.41
Now, if we figured Pennsylvania at an extremely low estimated deer populatoin of only one million deer the number per square mile would be 22.3 deer per square mile. That is a deer population that is very much in line with all of the other states.
Of course the deer are not distributed evenly over the landscape of any state. Some areas have better habitat and thus have more deer. Other areas have no deer because there is no deer habitat. I am sure that fact is true in each of the states.
But, the bottom line is that Pennsylvania deer populations are obviously very much in line with the other states or our deer harvests couldn’t be sustained at the high levels they are.
As for those Deer Chronicles I think everyone should read them with an open mind, maybe they could learn something.
R.S. Bodenhorn
Secondly, you stated that the PGC no longer releases population models to the public. WHY? We justed listed several states in the dialogue of this thread that willingly provide much more information to the public, specifically Virginia which manages roughly the same size state geographically, more comprehensively on a much smaller budget. What is PA hiding. If they released their data you wouldn't have to "research" your own population model (see pull out of your arse.) out of thin air. As for reading those chronicles with an open mind, do you mean the way the commissioners approached the xbow vote overwhelmingly objected by sportsmen, or the open minded way they opted for smaller wmu's and lowering tag allocations that continue to reduce the herd under the guise of "stabilization" mode?
06-20-2009, 10:33 PM
#26
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: York, PA.
Posts: 1,313
RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
ORIGINAL: WV Gino
Jeff
you can harvest 6 deer in zone C, 4 deer in zone B, and 2 deer in zone A.
That adds up to 12. The fact that you can't count higher than you have fingers makes me wonder how you own a mortgage comp. I assume this was a family business or you married into it.
Wv Gino
Jeff
you can harvest 6 deer in zone C, 4 deer in zone B, and 2 deer in zone A.
That adds up to 12. The fact that you can't count higher than you have fingers makes me wonder how you own a mortgage comp. I assume this was a family business or you married into it.
Wv Gino
For example: If you harvest 4 deer in zone C you can only harvest 2 more in zone B or C etc.
And as far as my mortgage Co. I did it all on my own, grew up in a row home in the inner city, put myself thru college loading trucks at night, got a job as a loan officer, saved every penny I earned and started my own company. Dont be hating just because I made more money by the age of 30 then you will during your entire life. Pike
06-20-2009, 10:41 PM
#27
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2003
Location: York, PA.
Posts: 1,313
RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
RSB. Can you provide a link that states that OH. only has 14.7 DPSM?
If that is true than PA. has far less than 14.7 DPSM!!
Maybe bluebird can help me out here and run the numbers, OH. had a 2008 pre season deer herd of around 760,000 whitetails.
Also lets stop trying to spin the #'s. The fact of the matter is 450,000 OH. deer hunters harvested only around 70,000 deer less than 900,000 + PA. deer hunters did in 2008, and in case you didnt know the state of OH. is smaller in size than the state of PA.!! If you are trying to claim that PA. has anywhere close to the same DPSM on avg. as OH. your fibbing or just like Gino trying to comment on a subject that you have NO clue about. Pike
If that is true than PA. has far less than 14.7 DPSM!!
Maybe bluebird can help me out here and run the numbers, OH. had a 2008 pre season deer herd of around 760,000 whitetails.
Also lets stop trying to spin the #'s. The fact of the matter is 450,000 OH. deer hunters harvested only around 70,000 deer less than 900,000 + PA. deer hunters did in 2008, and in case you didnt know the state of OH. is smaller in size than the state of PA.!! If you are trying to claim that PA. has anywhere close to the same DPSM on avg. as OH. your fibbing or just like Gino trying to comment on a subject that you have NO clue about. Pike
06-21-2009, 03:58 AM
#28
Fork Horn
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Morgantown WV USA
Posts: 108
RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
>Sorry Gino you can only harvest a total of 6 deer total!!
For example: If you harvest 4 deer in zone C you can only harvest 2 more in zone B or C etc.
Here is the Ohio DNR's response.
DEER ZONE BAG LIMITS ARE SEPARATE AND DO NOT IMPACT DEER HUNTING IN OTHER ZONES.
let's try another source if the Ohio DNR is not considered a valid source of info
http://deerimpacts.blogspot.com/2009...yet-falls.html
Wv Gino
For example: If you harvest 4 deer in zone C you can only harvest 2 more in zone B or C etc.
Here is the Ohio DNR's response.
DEER ZONE BAG LIMITS ARE SEPARATE AND DO NOT IMPACT DEER HUNTING IN OTHER ZONES.
let's try another source if the Ohio DNR is not considered a valid source of info
http://deerimpacts.blogspot.com/2009...yet-falls.html
With an early archery season limit of two deer in Zone A, four in Zone B and six in Zone C, a traveling sportsman could legally take 12 deer by hunting in all of the zones.
Wv Gino
06-21-2009, 04:15 AM
#29
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,879
RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
Comparing total harvest data is not a valid method of comparing the quality of hunting in various states. For, example the same herd that produced a harvest of 379K in 1999 produced a much larger harvest of 505K in 2001 and an even larger harvest of 518 K in 2003. But , in 2001 we harvested 203K buck and in 2003 we only harvested 142K. So ,based on the total harvest one might conclude that the herd was increasing and hunting was improving when the exact opposite was occurring. Therefore, the buck harvest is the most valid criteria for determining the quality of hunting in various states.
One also has to know if the harvest data is the actual reported harvest or the calculated harvest and how the deer densities were determined. If they were calculated based on the reported harvest versus the calculated harvests the densities could be much lower than if they were based on harvest estimates. One also has to know if the densities are all PSDDs or OWDDs and if they are based on total land area or just suitable deer habitat.
The 2008 PA buck harvest equates to 2.71 buck PSM which is less than the 2.9 buck PSM harvested in 2F ,which had a PSDD of around 17 DPSM. In 2007 we only harvested 2.42 buck PSM which is pathetic when compared to the 2001 harvest of 4.51 buck PSM.
One also has to know if the harvest data is the actual reported harvest or the calculated harvest and how the deer densities were determined. If they were calculated based on the reported harvest versus the calculated harvests the densities could be much lower than if they were based on harvest estimates. One also has to know if the densities are all PSDDs or OWDDs and if they are based on total land area or just suitable deer habitat.
The 2008 PA buck harvest equates to 2.71 buck PSM which is less than the 2.9 buck PSM harvested in 2F ,which had a PSDD of around 17 DPSM. In 2007 we only harvested 2.42 buck PSM which is pathetic when compared to the 2001 harvest of 4.51 buck PSM.
06-21-2009, 04:33 AM
#30
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: SW PA USA
Posts: 7,220
RE: WHAT A LOAD OF HORSE DUNG.
Therefore, the buck harvest is the most valid criteria for determining the quality of hunting in various states.
One also has to know if the harvest data is the actual reported harvest or the calculated harvest and how the deer densities were determined.