Rifle season 2008 is history
#161
RE: Rifle season 2008 is history
ORIGINAL: FiveMiler
No need torepeat what Cornelius just said. Should pretty much answer anyones questions.
No need torepeat what Cornelius just said. Should pretty much answer anyones questions.
You said again and again that herd health and reproduction had declined. you have not proven any such thing because it's simply not true.
I'll help you out a little:
http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/lib/pgc/reports/2006_wildlife/21001-05.pdf
an embryo per doe ratio of 1.5 in 2 year olds is considered good reproductive herd health. That was the standard set when the new deer program was launched as the above report states.
Take some time and look at this report:
http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?A=465&QUESTION_ID=167842
If you look at the reproductive rate studies the one thing that stands out is just how variable the rates can be. All this means is that variationa of .10 and lower can not lead to a conclusion in such a short time span.
Theres not enough evidence yet to claim either an improvement or a decline.
The bottom line is that no conclusions can be drawn yet about reproduction rates and the overallherd health has certainly not declined as you claim.
#162
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2004
Posts: 3,236
RE: Rifle season 2008 is history
ORIGINAL: bluebird2
No, I am not proposing that. I am simply pointing out that the PGC data shows that breeding rates and productivity decreased as a result of the PGC plan.
ORIGINAL: livbucks
So some are now proposing that a closer b/d ratio and less DPSM is a health risk for deer?
So some are now proposing that a closer b/d ratio and less DPSM is a health risk for deer?
#163
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location:
Posts: 2,978
RE: Rifle season 2008 is history
""You said again and again that herd health and reproduction had declined. you have not proven any such thing because it's simply not true.
I'll help you out a little: ""
Ha ha ha. BTB, thats really funny. You claim it isnt true, yet provide our very link that proves it is!! Maybe you think noone will click on it, and take your word for it? (LOL)
Truth is, not even you can cover that up with nonsense and talking in circles. I didnt dodge a thing, I addressed you with the facts as straightforward as is possible to do. ITs as clear as the nose on your face. The data clearly shows Declines steadily and across the board as stated. These things you say "didnt change". That in itself would be enough to NOT support the program. They were SUPPOSED TO CHANGE. FOR THE BETTER!.
They didnt. Number of adult does bred declined significantly. Number of embryos had a downhill slide, and the timing of the breeding window according to pgc did not change at all.
As I said, the annual report (which you kindly provided link to) shows the declines.
Ebryos per doe?
2002----1.64
2003----1.60
2004----1.53
2005----1.51
Gee. Great improvement chief! (LOL) [8D][8D]
Percent of adult doe even bred dropped from 92% dropped down to the most recent year on the chart which also happens to be by far the lowest level on the chartat 87%!
Wow. Successful deer plan there bro! (LOL)[:'(]
What does that mean? FAILURE.
Throw in with all this the losing of hunter numbers at over double the national average and anyone can see that continuing such undefendable asnine antics as pgc is doing isbordering oncriminal.
I'll help you out a little: ""
Ha ha ha. BTB, thats really funny. You claim it isnt true, yet provide our very link that proves it is!! Maybe you think noone will click on it, and take your word for it? (LOL)
Truth is, not even you can cover that up with nonsense and talking in circles. I didnt dodge a thing, I addressed you with the facts as straightforward as is possible to do. ITs as clear as the nose on your face. The data clearly shows Declines steadily and across the board as stated. These things you say "didnt change". That in itself would be enough to NOT support the program. They were SUPPOSED TO CHANGE. FOR THE BETTER!.
They didnt. Number of adult does bred declined significantly. Number of embryos had a downhill slide, and the timing of the breeding window according to pgc did not change at all.
As I said, the annual report (which you kindly provided link to) shows the declines.
Ebryos per doe?
2002----1.64
2003----1.60
2004----1.53
2005----1.51
Gee. Great improvement chief! (LOL) [8D][8D]
Percent of adult doe even bred dropped from 92% dropped down to the most recent year on the chart which also happens to be by far the lowest level on the chartat 87%!
Wow. Successful deer plan there bro! (LOL)[:'(]
What does that mean? FAILURE.
Throw in with all this the losing of hunter numbers at over double the national average and anyone can see that continuing such undefendable asnine antics as pgc is doing isbordering oncriminal.
#164
Banned
Join Date: Sep 2008
Location:
Posts: 2,978
RE: Rifle season 2008 is history
Livbucks, the plan is in place and has been, and those are the results so I dont think it is even debatable the results are the results! There is no "other" deer plan in place.
As for your question on b/d ratio and lower dd causing herd health declines, I dont think thats the case, though it is largely unknown exactly how ourextreme reductions or other change has caused the effects that itmight havetothe data. At the least, I think we have learned that our situation was FAR from the horror stories that were advertised judging by this data and lack of improvement. It also brings into question the validity of using reproductive data in the exact manner they insist on,when in many areas of the state, pgc admits that not nearly enough data can be or has been collected.Another example of pgc resisting benefical change.And no matter the reason, the plan right now is based on nothing more than the desires of ecoextreme groups with agendas and the boc's ear.
I continually hear RSB spew nonsense about not having enough reproductive data to go to smaller wmus. Thats pure nonsense. MANY states have smaller wmus than Pa, and the management in most cases is so much better than pa's joke scheme its sickening. There are other measures that can be used, and pgc should "adapt", not just run our deer program down the crapper and our hunting with it.
As for your question on b/d ratio and lower dd causing herd health declines, I dont think thats the case, though it is largely unknown exactly how ourextreme reductions or other change has caused the effects that itmight havetothe data. At the least, I think we have learned that our situation was FAR from the horror stories that were advertised judging by this data and lack of improvement. It also brings into question the validity of using reproductive data in the exact manner they insist on,when in many areas of the state, pgc admits that not nearly enough data can be or has been collected.Another example of pgc resisting benefical change.And no matter the reason, the plan right now is based on nothing more than the desires of ecoextreme groups with agendas and the boc's ear.
I continually hear RSB spew nonsense about not having enough reproductive data to go to smaller wmus. Thats pure nonsense. MANY states have smaller wmus than Pa, and the management in most cases is so much better than pa's joke scheme its sickening. There are other measures that can be used, and pgc should "adapt", not just run our deer program down the crapper and our hunting with it.
#165
RE: Rifle season 2008 is history
ORIGINAL: Cornelius08
""You said again and again that herd health and reproduction had declined. you have not proven any such thing because it's simply not true.
I'll help you out a little: ""
Ha ha ha. BTB, thats really funny. You claim it isnt true, yet provide our very link that proves it is!! Maybe you think noone will click on it, and take your word for it? (LOL)
Truth is, not even you can cover that up with nonsense and talking in circles. I didnt dodge a thing, I addressed you with the facts as straightforward as is possible to do. ITs as clear as the nose on your face. The data clearly shows Declines steadily and across the board as stated. These things you say "didnt change". That in itself would be enough to NOT support the program. They were SUPPOSED TO CHANGE. FOR THE BETTER!.
They didnt. Number of adult does bred declined significantly. Number of embryos had a downhill slide, and the timing of the breeding window according to pgc did not change at all.
As I said, the annual report (which you kindly provided link to) shows the declines.
Ebryos per doe?
2002----1.64
2003----1.60
2004----1.53
2005----1.51
Gee. Great improvement chief! (LOL) [8D][8D]
Percent of adult doe even bred dropped from 92% dropped down to the most recent year on the chart which also happens to be by far the lowest level on the chartat 87%!
Wow. Successful deer plan there bro! (LOL)[:'(]
What does that mean? FAILURE.
Throw in with all this the losing of hunter numbers at over double the national average and anyone can see that continuing such undefendable asnine antics as pgc is doing isbordering oncriminal.
""You said again and again that herd health and reproduction had declined. you have not proven any such thing because it's simply not true.
I'll help you out a little: ""
Ha ha ha. BTB, thats really funny. You claim it isnt true, yet provide our very link that proves it is!! Maybe you think noone will click on it, and take your word for it? (LOL)
Truth is, not even you can cover that up with nonsense and talking in circles. I didnt dodge a thing, I addressed you with the facts as straightforward as is possible to do. ITs as clear as the nose on your face. The data clearly shows Declines steadily and across the board as stated. These things you say "didnt change". That in itself would be enough to NOT support the program. They were SUPPOSED TO CHANGE. FOR THE BETTER!.
They didnt. Number of adult does bred declined significantly. Number of embryos had a downhill slide, and the timing of the breeding window according to pgc did not change at all.
As I said, the annual report (which you kindly provided link to) shows the declines.
Ebryos per doe?
2002----1.64
2003----1.60
2004----1.53
2005----1.51
Gee. Great improvement chief! (LOL) [8D][8D]
Percent of adult doe even bred dropped from 92% dropped down to the most recent year on the chart which also happens to be by far the lowest level on the chartat 87%!
Wow. Successful deer plan there bro! (LOL)[:'(]
What does that mean? FAILURE.
Throw in with all this the losing of hunter numbers at over double the national average and anyone can see that continuing such undefendable asnine antics as pgc is doing isbordering oncriminal.
Right out of Bluebird Larry's playbook of how liars can figure.... You selectively took the little 4 year slice of time that makes your slant look the best. here's a few more years from PA's research....
2000 1,075 14 November 90 1.60 90
2001 942 17 November 91 1.58 92
2002 520 14 November 86 1.64 91
2003 618 14 November 93 1.60 92
2004 601 15 November 90 1.53 89
2005 883 14 November 90 1.51 87
2006 632 11 November 89 1.53 85
The median embryos per doe for that time period is 1.57 and the median percent of does bred is 89.4 I dont quite know how to help you understand that these are normal fluctuations but it's kind of obvious that you only wish to understand your own ill conceived notions of how you think things ought to be.
Funny how more complete facts seem to water down your argument!
Your and brothers Larry and Darryl's failures as hunters do not mean that this states deer management is a failure. It needs twaeking for sure but guys like you who need to present partial "facts" just defeat your own purpose.
#168
Fork Horn
Join Date: Sep 2008
Posts: 227
RE: Rifle season 2008 is history
ORIGINAL: BTBowhunter
And now we hear from the other brother Darryl who can't even find numbers to screw with so he simply reverts to name calling
ORIGINAL: Coalcracker
WOW, it's RSB JR
WOW, it's RSB JR
And now we hear from the other brother Darryl who can't even find numbers to screw with so he simply reverts to name calling
One of my sons has a cat he names Bevis, I was wondering what your real name is.
#169
RE: Rifle season 2008 is history
Break in the action......they you guys can go back at it.
My 2 cents. When I see buck the last couple years, they are bigger than when I was first hunting and would see spikes and y's all the time. I like seeing bigger buck. Really, who does not. Do I see more buck now? I expect as more mature bucks are around, they are harder to find and hunt. I would have thought I would see lots of smaller buck still but, I don't see that being the case either. Could be all the doe blasting going on. Why do folks shoot button bucks? Do they not want to see a rack the next year? This one still amazes me. "I can't find any bucks" Yet last year you shot two button bucks.......
I used to hate passing on a spike's or 4 pointers in archery and then in rifle all of them get whacked by other hunters. If they let them walk one more year we would all have bigger racks to shoot. I also enjoy seeing deer grow. I'm in favor of the restrictions, think we need better control over the HR matters in smaller WMU's, and think our falling numbers is not directly affected by either of these at the moment. (That is a whole other topic.
Keep pissing back and forth. it is fun to watch. I'm loving this.
My 2 cents. When I see buck the last couple years, they are bigger than when I was first hunting and would see spikes and y's all the time. I like seeing bigger buck. Really, who does not. Do I see more buck now? I expect as more mature bucks are around, they are harder to find and hunt. I would have thought I would see lots of smaller buck still but, I don't see that being the case either. Could be all the doe blasting going on. Why do folks shoot button bucks? Do they not want to see a rack the next year? This one still amazes me. "I can't find any bucks" Yet last year you shot two button bucks.......
I used to hate passing on a spike's or 4 pointers in archery and then in rifle all of them get whacked by other hunters. If they let them walk one more year we would all have bigger racks to shoot. I also enjoy seeing deer grow. I'm in favor of the restrictions, think we need better control over the HR matters in smaller WMU's, and think our falling numbers is not directly affected by either of these at the moment. (That is a whole other topic.
Keep pissing back and forth. it is fun to watch. I'm loving this.
#170
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Apr 2008
Posts: 3,879
RE: Rifle season 2008 is history
The median embryos per doe for that time period is 1.57 and the median percent of does bred is 89.4 I dont quite know how to help you understand that these are normal fluctuations but it's kind of obvious that you only wish to understand your own ill conceived notions of how you think things ought to be.
Funny how more complete facts seem to water down your argument!
Funny how more complete facts seem to water down your argument!
Instead of denying reality ,BTB should be praising the PGC for how well the plan worked. They wanted to reduce recruitment and that is exactly what happened. Of course ,in order to accomplish this they had to lie to the hunters and tell them that breeding rates and productivity would increase due to ARs and a healthier herd. But they knew all along that reducing the herd would reduce the average age of the doe herd which would result in lower productivity and lower breeding rates,since older doe have higher breeding rates and higher numbers of embryos/doe than younger doe.