RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

The better viable solution is for those hunters who want to harvest a 2.5+ buck is for those hunters to pass on all 1.5 buck and harvest a buck that meets their personal standards. Why should those hunters that would be satisfied with a 1.5 buck be forced to pass on that buck when there is no scientific evidence that ARs improve breeding rates, productivity or shorten the breeding permit.

Furthermore, why would anyone support ARs when the research and field results after 12 years of ARs in Miss. showed that rack sizes decreased? In addition, all the research I have seen by Dr. Kroll and others ,indicate that 1.5 spike bucks are inferior for the rate of antler development. this is confirmed by Dr. Williams in his article,"Spikes Are Not Inferior,or are They?"

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

1st I would like to say that NYC Hunt A M has made some valid points about AR's...like..ummm...uhh...wait a minute...no..no actually you have made no valid point as to why you would like to control a sport that is completely fine right now. I completely disagree with you about AR. My son will be deer hunting in 3 years. If AR is the answer to a better deer herd, than I would like you to be the one take my son deer hunting and tell him that that 1st buck he has seen in the woods is off limits because he is not as good as the other ones. His headgear is not impressive enough. You tell him that he has to let it walk and wait for a bigger one. I want you to do this because I sure as heck am not going to be the one to dissapoint a new hunter. I do not want to be the one responsible for another young hunter leaving the sport because NYS has too many restrictions. How about we tackle some other problems. What about the sillyDMP lottery. Why should I apply for aDMP and get denied but 4 weeks later someone else applies for the same area and gets it. Now I have to wait and try to get it in the "OOPS WE HAVE NOT SOLD ENOUGH DMP'S FIRE SALE IN NOVEMBER" now thats a real topic. AR's have been tried and have always and will always fail. It should be called Trophy Restriction's because that is all it is.

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

You talk about Game Management. There are enough hunters in New York who are happy when they MANAGE to shoot GAME! AR's has nothing to do with game management. If you have done so much of your supposed research you would see that deer biologists do not support AR's. They support shooting of older class bucks.The size of the antlers has nothing to do with helping the deer herd.

Hey, while you are at it why don't you try to get restrictions on the size of a coyote you can shoot. Or better yetTHATGREY SQUIRREL MUST HAVE AT LEAST A 10" TAIL. Don't shoot that Turkey. His spurs are not long enough.

You make me chuckle with your silly little antler restrictions. If you want trophy bucks go buy yourself a piece of land, put up a HIGH FENCE, grow your food plots, get your buck to doe ratio to 1 to 1 and manage your own herd like they do in Texas or any of those other trophy buck slaughter pens.

Hunting is intended to keep the game numbers down so we are not overrun by animals in our city's. Huntingwas never intended to be for trophy's. It was and is for survival.
LEAVE NEW YORK'S HERD ALONE!!!

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

I know I don't poke my head in here much, but this I just couldn't resist. I grew up in the Catskills, in Windham specifically, and have hunted both restricted and non-restricted antlers. Personally I think the antler restrictions are a joke. I don't know about most hunters in NYC, (actually I do but I'm doing my best to keep my comments to myself) but I don't hunt for the antlers. You can't eat them, so they're of no use to me.

You're not talking about the quality of the deer population, you're talking about the quality of the rack you want to shoot. You can dress it up any way you want, but its that simple. There is absolutely no correlation between the age of a buck and his genes, so whatever age he passes them on at is inconsequential. I know what you're going to say next, so don't get ahead of me. You're thinking "well if they don't survive to mate, how will they pass on their genes?" Young bucks are removed from the gene pool every day and in much larger numbers than a typicalhunting seasoncould ever impose. They're hit by vehicles, killed by other animals, or simply never make it to adulthood for a multitude of reasons. So if you were really in it for just the betterment of gene quality, you'd also be looking into providing safe passage for deer across New York's highways, the eradication of predators and disease control/research among the populations.

What we really need to do is educate the hunting population, specifically those from the City who are unfamiliar with deer and hunting in general. With proper education and the knowledge that trophy hunting is unacceptable perhaps the deer population will improve.Several timesI've taken a trip through the woods to find a deer's body with its head cut off during the season. I've followed blood trails that led to a decomposing body that was left to lay intact. Now there is no way to prove who did this, but I can largely assume they are from out of town since I know just about every hunter here and also know that the mass majority of hunters here hunt for food. Despite the facade put on by our brochures, vacation ads, and general misinterpretation of the area as the playground of NYCwe are a very poor community. If you take a trip on any back road you'll realize this. Antler restrictions do nothing but place a restriction on the meat that can be put on a table here. Due to the increase in taxes many homeowners have been forced to sell their property, leaving them only the option to hunt public land which is overrun with idiots, so their chance of seeing a large buck is slim.

Now I'm not here to sing a sob story, but I'm sure this is the case in more communities than just mine. You ask for all of this proof, and for facts, well we've given you cases and reasons why your ideas will not work. You've given us very little. So I would like you to provide us with case studies of areas where this has been effective other than "we've got scientists meeting on it."

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

Asa matter of fact, Dr Kroll just published an article pointing out the flaws in the Mississippi reseasrch in last months issue of North American Whitetail (page 105) He went on to say that AR's are less than perfect but can be an effective starting tool in good deer management

To you New York guys on either side of this issue.... be very wary of anything posted by Bluebird2 (aka deadeer, ddear, beenthere and others) He usually is busy hijacking Pennsylvania threads with his campaign against AR's and adequate doe harvests. Whatever side you support on the AR issue, be wary of Bluebirds posts. He has been banned underseveral different screen names on this forum for his out of context statements, distortions and twisting of the facts on PA threads. (those words from a moderator, not me)

If you support AR's, fine. Don't let BB2's postschange your mindwithout checking the facts out. Often his "facts" are his own conclusions that happen to be 100% opposite to that of the respected wildlife biologist community

If you are against AR's, thats fine too! But don't wind up embarassing yourself by accepting and using facts posted here by BB2. Anyone knowledgable will usually tear those facts apart.

AR's arent perfect IMHO. There are points to be made on both sidesand I didn't stop by to enter into a debate that concerns a state where I havent and probably won't hunt for deer. This is your business guys! I however did think you guys deserve to know who just entered your debate and what his agenda is.

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

Actually what was flawed was Dr. Kroll's analysis of the results from Miss. Here is what Dr. Kroll said about Dr. Demarais study.

"However, since the Demarias study looked at the effects of imposing a point limitation, the concern seemed to be that this allowed "inferior" yearling bucks with spike antlers to reproduce. Of course it was assumed that spike yearlings are genetically inferior, but that premise has not been proved."

The truth is Dr. Demarais never claimed spike bucks were genetically inferior ,nor did he claim that the reduced rack sizes were due to a negative effect of ARs on the genetics of the herd. Instead , he made it quite clear that the decrease in rack sizes was simply due to high grading, which is defined as harvesting the best buck in each age class.

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

Here is another interesting bit of info from Dr. Kroll's article which BT failed to mention. Based oh his 35 years ,Dr. Kroll said the herds,"want" a a sex ratio of one buck to two does. The funny thing is that was the B/D ratio of our PA herd before ARs were implemented , Therefore , ARs were not needed to improve the B/D ratio.

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

"I would like you to be the one take my son deer hunting and tell him that that 1st buck he has seen in the woods is off limits because he is not as good as the other ones."

Jimbodwb - Your attempt at being glib only exaccerbateshow little you know!
It saddens me to no end that you will be the one taking your son into the woods for his first hunt and you apparently know so little about the AR rules or anything else regarding deer biology. The note below is verbatim from the DEC website. Sad, that you think you are knowledgable enough on the subject but come off like a buffoon when you obviosly don't know what is involved!
Important: Hunters under 17 years of age are exempt from the three point requirement.

[hr]

bluebird2 -- you really do owe conservation an apology -- as knowledgable as you are, you twist and distort the facts and put a negative spin on everything you partially ingest.

We learned a lot of good things from the Missisippi study. That yes, when antler restrictions are part of the equation too long they can begin a negative cycle. All along, I have said that they are a good beginning point towards better herd management.

You say things like there is "no scientific evidence that ARs improve breeding rates, productivity or shorten the breeding permit."

THAT as you well know is not the same as saying that a balanced age structure amongst the bucks insures better breeding cycles. You darn well know that AR's give those younger bucks at least an extra year to be a bigger part of that healthier breeding cycle.

Shame on you!

[hr]

huntingirl89- thank you for sharing your opinion -- but please do not pretend to know what I am talking about -- don't you dare pretend to know what I am thinking! Not once in this discussion was GENE management mentioned until you brought it up. Your assumption about who is poaching in your town is unbelievably naive and your supposed knowledge of the need to educate city folk is assinine. Do yourself a favor and run to the library and do a little bit of research -- better yet talk to your local encon officer about who is cutting up your deer!

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

That is not what we learned from Miss. since rack sizes decreased after just 4 years of ARs.
There is no evidence to support your claim that a balanced buck age structure insures a better breeding cycle. having a higher percentage of older buck in the herd did not shorten the breeding period as predicted and there is no evidence that dominant breeding by older bucks produced by ARs , lead to healthier deer or bigger bucks.

BTW, you can forget about the ,"shame on you " comments , since they have absolutely no effect on me. The shame lies at the foot of QDM supporters that claim we have to protect 1.5 buck to produce a better breeding cycle, to justify producing more bucks with trophy size racks,even though there is no evidence to support that claim.

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

Deleted previous post because I shouldn't need to name drop to make myself appear more credible. In the rules of engagement if you will, it makes one's own argument appear shoddy unless backed-up by a more sufficient name. I don't need names.

IF you say this has nothing to do with genetics, then what does it have to do with? Since you obviously don't want stronger genes in the herd, and don't care if the bucks pass on their genetic material (which would eventually lead to larger bucks due to the dominant males being selected for in the mating process), then all you are left with is antlers. Therefore, you defeated yourself in your own argument. Not to mention you getting very defensive and hauty makes you appear less credible and frankly someone I wouldn't ally myself with on any side of the argument.