NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

My name is Martin T. Mc Donnell. I am the Region 2 - Big Game Committee Representative to the NYS Conservation Council. I love deer hunting and am a huge proponent of "better deer management". Although, I welcome information and discussion from any and all sourcesI would like to hear from NYC and Long Island residents in particular, as I am trying to organize an e-mail group and am calling it NYCHAM (New York City Hunting Alliance Movement). For too long the NYC area residents have been accused of not doingour fair share in the way of shaping and influencing hunting and conservation issues in this state. Hopefully, my group will be willing to do something about that. If you are interested in the exchange of pertinent information, discussion and taking the necessary action (e-mail, letters, faxes, or phone calls) towards better hunting and deer management please contact me at [email protected] (I need your name and borough or town).[/align]

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

Just curious, what do you consider "better deer management"? I would be interested in what types of issues you guys have in mind to help shape and influence before I would give support to this organization.

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

Hello Steve,[/align][/align]I am a strong proponent of the QDMA philosophy. Herd management, habitat management, hunter management and herd monitoring are the cornerstones of better deer management.I believe antler restrictions are an integral part of a better management philosophy, butthey are not the sole answer. They must be combined with better habitat management and tighter doe management. With that formulain place we as hunters can have a reasonable expectation of better deer hunting and a healthier deer herd.[/align]Steve, you may have gotten the impression that I am starting an organization. Which is and isn't true. I have many friends around the state. I have great sources (friends) of information throughout the QDM Association as well as the DEC and the NYS Conservation Council (of which I am a participant). I participate in most of the major forums and lists around on the internet. My agenda (so to speak) is to reach out to as many hunters from the NYC and Long Island area in hopes of keeping them informed with timely information and getting them to respond to issues that ultimately effect deer hunting and conservation issues. For example; A couple of weeks ago when the Youth Hunting Bill was on the floor of the Senate and eventually the Governor's desk, I implored hundreds of New Yorkers (all over the state) to write, fax, email and call the necessary representatives in order to get the message out that "we" cared and "we" were watching. I'd liked to think "we" made a difference.[/align][/align]There is NO money involved, or to be made. Deer hunting and conservation are my passions. If you subscribe to the NY Outdoor News you may recognize my name as I have addressed numerous issues in "letters to the editor". In fact, in the August 8th edition I took to task the writings of an obvious "slob" hunter. My writings have appeared in several outdoor columns in several upstate newspapers.[/align]I hope I have answered your question sufficiently. If not, ask me anything you want.[/align]

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

Thanks for your reply. I sort of had a hunch that antler restrictions might be part of this "better deer management" plan. I myself am completely against antler restrictions. I feel that the deer herd does not need to be managed for the quality of a bucks antlers but for total deer numbers in the habitat available to them. I think nice trophy deer could be had without antler restrictions by hunters who are willing to put in some extra effort. I see NO need for something like antler restrictions. It puts too much emphasis on the trophy hunting which should be no concern of the dept. of environmental conservation. There are probably MORE people who purchase hunting licenses that are happy with any deer they get than there are trophy hunters who push for things like antler restrictions. In my opinion why should a minority of hunters be getting what they want, and the majority have to be restricted to what they can shoot? I don't think it is fair in the least.

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

I am with Steve 100% - not to attempt to dampen your enthusiasm for overall management.

But I will adamantly resist any attempt at MANDATORY AT/trophy management anywhere in NYS.

Steve

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

Steve, open discussion and opinions are a big part of the communication network that I am starting with NYCHAM. We, as a state are in the first phase of a new deer management plan that include antler restrictions. AR's (I think we can all agree) will help to enhance an imbalance in our herd's age structure. That being said it is an improvement over what we had. The DEC did not just cave in to the whims of a few hunters to placate them. They realized that deer and hunting would realize an immediate benefit. Not only willAR's positively effect herd age structure and enhance breeding scientology, but the larger antlered bucks that we will gradually see will help revitalize the interest in hunting and we definitely need that. The fact that a hunter will now have to take an extra longer look at an animal accomplishes a couple of things. 1) less accidents and 2) less senseless wounding of the animals that we love. The DEC saw this as a win-win situation and were smart enough to learn from the Pennsylvania experience that they could not ram it down the throats of sportsmen. Hence, the gradual introduction in a modest amount of WMU's. Keep in mind that many of the brightest minds in biology and a huge groundswell of hunters are behind this QDM movement because science is telling them that it is the best methodology for healthier deer and certainly a positive influence on hunting in general. Are AR's the final answer? NO. Are they an integral part of the beginning phase of better deer conservation? ABSOLUTELY! Be patient and give it a chance, I believe the long term benefits far outweigh the short term inconvenience. Happy hunting![/align]

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

These brightest in biology have been paid by trophy hunters to come to their conclusions, I can assure you! Deer NUMBERS should be managed by a state game agency, and not the number of points on a bucks head. This age structure argument is lame when a 1 1/2 year old buck can breed just the same as a 3 1/2 year old and pass on the same genetic make-up. Your suggestion that a benefit of AR's would lead to less accidents is irresponsible. Hunters should know exactly what they are shooting at at ALL times, not just under AR rules. I am sure I won't change your mind here, nor will you change mine, but I would only wish that you guys would be honest about things and say that your biggest thrill in hunting is killing trophy deer, and cut the lies that a better age structure benefits a herd. It does absolutely NOTHING in respect to improving a herd as a whole or the habitat it lives in.

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

Steve you have taken an argumentative and insulting tone and frankly I don't have the time for it. Your suggestion that my "less accidents" theory is irresponsible is irrational. There are a lot of "ignorant" hunters out there whether YOU realize it or not. People who do take "sound shots" and drive around with loaded guns in their vehicles and "shine" at night. For you to suppose that I am irresposible by putting that out there is frightening.
[/align]For your information it is a proven fact that older breeding bucks positively enhance the breeding rut and absolutely reduce the likelihood of "skewing". That is covered in deer science 101. You once had the opportunity to learn things like that from "NYCHAM". Now, I am no longer interested in having you participate with us. [/align][/align]For your information on July 23rd, 24th, 25th and 26th of this year no less then 20 of the brightest minds of deer science (from all over the world)gathered in Chattanooga Tennesee for "think tank discussions" and seminars" --- for FREE -- at the QDMA Convention. Names like Dr. Craig Harper, Dr. Mark Conner, Dr. Michael Chamberlain, Dr Steven Demarais, Dr. Mickey Hellickson, Dr. James Kroll, Kip Adams, Dr. Karl Miller, Dr. Grant Woods, Dr. Craig Dougherty etc. etc. etc. They paid their own way and did not get paid for there appearance.[/align][/align]Furthermore, for you to suggest to this forum that I have been disingenuos is assinine. You don't know me and apparently are not open minded enough to educate yourself about deer biology. Happy hunting![/align]

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

Hot button issue for sure.
People either love AR or hate it.
I personally am very happy with AR implementation in PA.
I hope NY can come to some consensus, without the wars like PA had.

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

I apologize if my tone sounded harsh to you. That was not my intention. I have been hunting deer for 30 years now, and realize that there are a good many slob hunters out there, but in my opinion AR's will do absolutely nothing to change such activity. Do you think the QDMA is something other than a group whose main purpose is to grow big antlered deer? Sure they want to make it look like they are concerned with an entire deer herd, but the bottom line to them is big trophy antlers! No way anyone will convince me of anything different. I would bet that all the biologists you mentioned are trophy hunters or associated with trophy hunting in one way or another. That they paid there own way to get there doesn't mean much when they will surely be profiting from their appearances somehow.

And yes, I AM open minded about educating myself about deer. I am also a realist and can clearly see when something is being given a biological twist when in fact it has been created solely for the trophy hunters benefit. If we want to talk biology, why don't we take man out of the picture altogether and bring back wolves, mountain lions, etc. to control the deer populations. I wonder how much they were concerned with the age structure of the deer?

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

Not your intention -- Are you kidding me? You called me a liar!

Steve, I don't have a problem discussing any conservation issue with anybody, but you have besmirched my character and intimated that you have knowledge of what motivates me and a large number of my friends. Steve, you don't know anything about me and miraculously after thirty years you know even less about deer. Your statements reek of ignorance and are at best, inflammatory garbage. Do the sport a favor and stay out of the woods!

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

I am sorry that you think I am calling you a liar directly. I would also recommend that you not engage in debates on forums such as this if you are typically so sensitive. My feeling on all this is that the QDMA and anyone who supports it is not exactly telling the truth or the whole story behind why they want such practices adopted. The QDMA is clearly a self-serving organization of dedicated trophy deer hunters that wants everyone to believe that their methodology is what is best for a deer herd. I strongly disagree with what they have to say and the way the try to present it. I have nothing against people who want to shoot trophies only or want to practice such management practices on their own land. They have every right to do that. They however DON'T have the right to think that an entire state also needs to adopt these methods. This is not right, and I will strongly fight against it if it is proposed statewide in NYS.

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

Do you know anyone from the QDMA?[/align][/align]Are you a biologist?[/align][/align]Do you know anything about the QDMA?[/align][/align]You seem to do a lot of talking but you don't back anything with facts.[/align][/align]They do have the right to influence people into believing that smart science should govern deer management. Every one of the founders of QDMA are noted wildlife biologists. They are men of science and are dedicated to the outdoors and conservation. They don't make decisions on 30 years of feelings in the outdoors. They make policy based on decades of scientific facts and conclusions, and in case you haven't noticed Steve, the DEC obviously agrees with their management methodology.[/align][/align]You can fight as long as you want as hard as you want, but this country's laws are based on the best interests of it's inhabitants and those conclusions many times arechiseled outby a directcorrolation to science.[/align][/align]Its time Steve, its time to do yourself a favor. For Christmas or your birthday (whichever comes first) buy yourself a one year membership to the QDMA. I guarantee that after one year you will have learned so much you'll want to sign up again.[/align][/align]PS - I get a little testy when someone who hasn't got an ounce of proof behind his position calls me a liar.I get a little annoyed when someone talks and all that comes out is insulting bulls--t rhetoric! However, being the sensitive soul that I am let me end by saying --- Kiss my arse![/align]

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

Someone's panties are in a bunch over voodoo science and deer farming, which is what QDMA is in my opinion.

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

Is that opinion based on some expertise or a scientific background?

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

And its not "science" because someone says so - no matter how many times they say it, how loudly they say it, or how many academics proclaiming themselves "Dr" are involved.

QDMA uses "science" to support the conclusion that is the core of their agenda.
When research is conducted to prove a position rather then impartially seeking the truth, it is not science - its a sales and marketing program.
And QDM equals big bucks - both kinds.

In parts of central NY, nearly 60% of the 1 1/2 old bucks are 3 point or better per side.
Half of these are 4/side.

Any points based AR is going to target the best of this class, while typical QDM/Trophy aggressive antlerless harvest will continue to be 1/3 button bucks. If your "Dr" scientists can attempt to spin this as a positive, we will really the motivation behind all this.

SteveBNY (not Steve863).

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

I'm sure you mean well, but you're not going to accomplish anything if you believe this. There is a reason the legislature does not take the Conservation Council or your issues seriously.

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

Miss. has more experience and data on statewide ARs than any other state. Here is a quote from MIss. that highlights the problem with ARs.
[quote]The perpetual protection of bucks with small
antlers could be a problem with any antler restriction,
but it is especially a problem when using more restric-
tive antler restrictions designed to extend protection to
21⁄ 2 -year bucks. For example, if an 8-point antler
restriction were applied to moderate quality habitats in
Mississippi, it would protect almost all yearling bucks
and 70 percent of 21⁄ 2 -year bucks. But it would also
protect 34 percent of bucks 41⁄ 2 -years and older (see
Figure 5). In other words, it would create a class of
always protected, small-antlered, mature bucks that
would eat valuable forage and breed while better-quality
bucks were being harvested.
The example in Figure 3 showed the problem of
perpetual protection of inferior-antlered mature bucks
can be without proper antler restriction. In our exam-
ple we started with 500 yearling bucks and followed
them to 41⁄ 2 years of age with an 8-point total antler
restriction to approximate its potential effects on buck
age structure. We used antler-growth patterns from a
high-quality soil region in Mississippi, applied a 50 per-
cent harvest rate, and added a 10 percent nonharvest
mortality rate each year. To determine how many of
these “perpetually protected” older bucks could result
under these conditions, we boosted the nonharvest mor-
tality rate to 15 percent for mature bucks and calculated
the number of 41⁄ 2 -year and older bucks with less than
eight total points would still be alive after five years.
Under these conditions about 70 of these bucks could
be roaming the woods after five years! Again, these
bucks would never be eligible for harvest but would
be eating and breeding – a management problem that
should be addressed. To evaluate the effect of the 4-
point antler restriction on antler size of older bucks,
we used six WMAs with adequate sample sizes from
31⁄ 2 -year bucks. Antler size within age classes generally
declined after the antler restriction (see Figure 6). The
decline was evident in at least one of the two age class-
es evaluated across the range of soil regions in
Mississippi. On these public management areas, gross
Boone & Crockett scores decreased 5 to 9 inches for
21⁄ 2 -year bucks and 10 to 17 inches for 31⁄ 2 -year bucks.

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

Quote:

---

Are AR's the final answer? NO. Are they an integral part of the beginning phase of better deer conservation? ABSOLUTELY!

---

Anybody remember me saying this!

[hr]
SteveBNy
--nothing you have stated makes any logical sense.

[hr]

bsddaemon0-- please enlighten me as to your knowledge of how the legislature perceives the NYS Conservation council.

[hr]

bluebird2--not fair toput out information out of context from unnamed sources, however this information is consistent and I believe accurate. Which takes me back to the quote I made above. AR's are a beginning place for better deer management. Not the final place. Gentlemen, you need to look at the big picture in NY.

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

Reply for when you have no other?

What here do you not understand?

The figures I gave came from a proposal drafted by a group in central NY attempting to impliment mandatory AR based on with spread in 7J, 7m and one other. The proposal was written with the help of academic "Dr's" of wildlife biology. I have a copy saved - thankfully it was killed by overwhelming resistance from the rank and file hunters.
These figures show "the big picture" has far different needs in CNY then the Catskills etc. There is no "one size fits all" answers or even needs that cover the whole state. That is logic - or should be.


What's not logical aboutrefusing to creditstudies done to prove a position rather then done impartialy to discover truth?
I've read a lot of QDMA material - I have not seen a study that was done other then to "prove" what they sought to promote.

SteveBNY

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

CAN'T WE ALL JUST GET ALONG...AND SHARE SOME MED -WELL BBQ'ED BACK STRAPS

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

You're not taken the least bit seriously. That's why despite all your whining you don't get anywhere. It doesn't matter if you are right or wrong about QDMA or whatever. They know you won't back up your arguments with actions, and worse, in some cases will go back home and tell your constituents that those very same people in Albany who ignore and/or actively work against the best interests of hunters/sportsmen are their best friends in the world. You're creditability is all but nonexistant.

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

Here is the link to the article on the effects of ARs in Miss.

http://msucares.com/pubs/publications/p2427.pdf

Rack sizes decreased across all soil types in Miss. due to high grading. We can expect the same results in PA since our restrictions protect fewer 1.5 buck than in Miss. After 10 years of APRs in Miss. they added spread restrictions in an attempt to correct the problem.

ARs were tried in several western states but were repealed just as they were in WMU 118 in Mich. after just 4 years.

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

Sure, so you are certain that AR's will be law throughout NYS one day soon? The rest of us need to shut up and quit hunting, right? You just might be in for a surprise. As you can see from a small sample on this forum, there are plenty of people who think your beloved QDM theories are nothing but a bunch of bunk. As someone else mentioned your panties are obviously in a bunch that people are not agreeing with you on this. You should have known better than to post such stuff and think that you wouldn't get taken to task for it.

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

Doesn't matter if they are or not. That has nothing to do with the ineffectiveness of the Conservation Council or the sportsman community in general in advancing an agenda in the state legislature. As this thread demonstrates there are a lot of people who spend their time arguing their position on an issue and none willing to have an honest discussion on why they are ineffective in Albany. Until that happens you can argue all you want about QDMA or anything else until you turn blue in the face and it won’t matter one bit because the legislature does not take you or your issues seriously.

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

You do have a good point. How long did it take NYS to lower the age for hunting deer? Finally happened this year. How about making rifles legal in many counties where there really wasn't any reason not to allow them? Just happened in the last couple of years. Bear hunting? Several new units opened up in the last couple of years also. I think things have started to move a bit faster as far as hunting is concerned compared to days gone by. They did implement AR's in a few units down in the Catskills two or three years ago and is still in effect this year. I just don't want this rule to spread to all areas. I think if the people against AR's were as vocal as those who wanted them implemented, you would never have had them implemented even in the few units they did. I for one would try to argue my point with the state if AR's were close to becoming law throughout the state. Like I've said before, in my opinion the DEC's job is to contol deer numbers and it should make absolutely NO difference to them how many antler points a buck has on his head when he happens to get shot. Antler size has nothing to do with controlling a deer population in our state or any state. Anyone who goes past the QDMA's first couple of pages on their website can clearly see what their theories are all about. If people want to apply these theories on their own land they can go right ahead. In my opionion the state has no business mandating it on everyone. Obviously the original poster of this thread can't seem to fathom any of this.

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

Here is another interesting quote from Miss. regarding the results of their APS.

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

I agree with the two Steves, STEVENY and STEVE863. u like and believe QDM? do it on your OWN land. the rest of us are happy harvesting 1 1/2 - whatever year old deer. all the QDM is a bunch of **&$&# just another business. anyways.. to each his own. this is AMERICA

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

The man who started this Post was baited and then jumped on! He certainly has a right to his opinion,he is involved and is spending his time trying to effect positive change.

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

Baited?? He came on here proclaiming himself as a "huge proponent of "better deer management"". He was looking for people to organize and discuss things with so we were MORE than willing to discuss things with him since this is after all a discussion board. He obviously couldn't handle anyone disagreeing with him or QDM theories so he got p*$$ed and went home.

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

bsddaemon0
[/align]Your statement lacks foundation or facts. How could you possibly know what the legislature "thinks" of the NYSCC? People like you, who make statements like that, are usually the ones that never get involved or "try" to be part of the solution. Game management in this state is at best a "mess"! Tell us what YOU are doing to try and fix it.[/align]-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/align]bluebird2[/align][/align]Highgrading is indeed a possible problem after several years of AR's. I agree. However, will you not agree that considering the state of the herd in NY, factoring in the lack of deer management by the state (over the years), that antler restrictions were a good place to start "better deer management" in New York. Believe me, if we could micro-manage the herd I would be all for that, but I don't think we will see that in our lifetimes.[/align]-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/align]Steve863
[/align]I don't know what your malfunction is! You insult me and call me a liar. Then you apologize like a whiny old was woman. Believe me, I can handle discussion. I have written and spoken in several different forums across this state and have realized a modicum of mutual respect throughout the hunting and conservation community by my stances and knowledge. What are YOU doing to make deer conservation in NYS better. The NYS Conservation Council is manned by volunteers who represent thousands of sportmen and women across this state. Not everyone agrees with the chosen management tools but at least they are out there having their opinions heard. I have not heard you say an intelligible suggestion to enhance deer hunting or conservation management.[/align][/align]I am starting NYCHAM because I believe as sportsmen we need to do a lot more in the way of getting involved. That includes everyone -- the whole state! I localized it to my area because I believe it significant to know who in my area will rise up and have their voices heard! What are YOU doing?[/align][/align]PS - Steve - yesterday I was away dropping off one of my three sons at college in a neighboring state. You, in your small minded world thought that I left the forum and wasn't coming back. How pathetic is that? GET A LIFE![/align]--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------[/align]RuLzU[/align][/align]This isn't about what I like on my property. This is about what is good for the deer herd. Yes,AR's are an inconvenience to some, but they provide asolution to a real conservation problem and guess what? They also happen to have a positive effect on the sport.[/align][/align]
"the rest of us are happy harvesting 1 1/2 - whatever year old deer"[/align][/align]Do you speak for a large group that are against antler restrictions?[/align][/align]In case you haven't noticed there are large groups of concerned sportsmen that are winning their fight to have AR's included into game management. They have organized and gotten involved. What are you doing?[/align][/align][/align]

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

Steve thats "wash" woman

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

tsoc
[/align]Thank you for recognizing thatI am trying to do something constructive.[/align]

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

I realize that many people here at this forum think that I am looking to gain something from NYCHAM and I am --knowledge. I am NOT looking for money, notoriety or arguments. I am not starting my own website. I am looking for the exchange of ideas and information and a commitment to get involved. Thats it!
Anybody that does not agree with antler restrictions is welcome to show me a better, viable solution. But please have some scientific basis for expounding on it. I am not interested in conjecture or myopic opinions that start with "I want" or "I need". Tell me what you are doing for deer, deer management and conservation issues. Tell me what sacrifices you make to promulgate better hunting in New York.[/align]

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

So you challenge us to "what are you doing"? What makes you think your way is the right or only solution? You think I attacked you, when you obviously can't handle anyones opinion that is contrary to yours. You are the one doing the attacking. Just re-read your replies to all the people who didn't agree with you. There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with the way things are now where any buck over 3" antlers is legal. As I've said before it is NO business of the DEC's to manage a deer herd for the antler size of the male deer. Why should any reasonable thinking person who understands that hunting is predominately a tool for the state to control deer numbers think that the antler size of the deer that get shot be of any importance?? Tell me, why?? Of course, it's important to someone who wants to kill trophy sized deer, but why would it be important to anyone else be they hunter or non-hunter?? I will await your answer here.

A few suggestions for possible change or improvement to the way things are managed would be to maybe allow only one buck per season to be shot by hunters no matter what weapon they hunt with. Monitor doe permits by WMU more carefully. I think this was poorly handled in recent years where too many permits were given out for some areas which then closed off some areas to doe hunting for several years straight. I also don't think damage permits should be given out at the asking. Too many deer get shot unnecessarily this way. I would also ban food plots and anyone hunting anywhere near them. Deer should be left wild and find food for themselves. If you feed deer like cattle, then they shouldn't be considered wild and free. And last but not least, to fight any move by movements like yours to establish AR rules throughout NYS!! I will fight tooth and nail to stop such practices. You can think all you want that it's a biologically proven way of managing deer, but to many of us it's nothing but a trophy hunters gimmick trying to make it easier for themselves to kill bigger racked deer. That is all there is to it. If you want to believe otherwise, knock yourself out, but don't think all hunters will be jumping on your bandwagon just because you believe in it!

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

Martin,

Did you skip me on purpose?
You got 2 different Steve's here - both right of course:D
I tried to lay out several points that would be interesting to hear your take on - like the failed proposal of 2 years ago in CNY and the
info their studies showed.

Steve

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

Sacrifices?? What great sacrifice is anyone making? We hunt deer because we like to, whether it's for trophy or meat. If you think you are making a great sacrifice by trying to implement AR's you're wrong. You want them implemented way more for your own benefit than for the deer. I'm sure you won't like me telling you this, but that's what it boils down to.

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

There 1st has to be an agreement that change is needed!

My prior post listed what I feel - prove that sometning easier like managing herd size to local habitat can be done.

Then and only then start discussions on finetuning for age structure ONLY IF it can be shown that it is critical to the herd and not ANY special interest.

SteveBNY

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

Nice try at changing the subject to avoid giving a direct answer. Notice that I did not agree or disagree with your support of QDMA. I said NYSCC is not taken seriously and backed up that statement by pointing out the legislature does not act upon your issues. Neither you nor anyone else reading this can dispute that given the public track record of failure which can easily be verified by looking at the legislative records all of which are available online for the world to see.

Your original statement was

Therefore, I would like to know what your plan is for getting your local NYC area representatives to move your agenda, whatever it may be, through the legislature. Before you respond with a lame, we're going to educate them type of answer, bear in mind that many of your NYC area representatives have been in office for 20, 30 years and by now I think they've heard all your arguments and just do not care what you think about anything. I want to know how you plan to advance your cause in spite of this.

RE: NYC Hunting Alliance Movement - NYCHAM
 

What a bunch of bologna