RE: PA antler restriction
 

Since all the buck in a given area are subject to the same habitat conditions, that is not a factor in high grading and it doesn't matter if a spike is due to being late born .If it takes 3 more years to become a 12 pt., high grading will still occur,because it is likely that the spike will be harvested as a 2.5 ,5-6Pt. rather than a 4.5, 12 pt.

In order to prevent high grading, the point restrictions have to be set to protect around 90% of the 1.5 buck and with a restriction that high it protects too many 2.5+ buck.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

I believe we all understand it perfectly although I'm not sure that even you understand your personal version of it

So you are, in effect, saying that what you call high grading will occur with or without our present AR's, meaning that your prior claim that AR causes high grading is therefore false. Once again,You cant have it both ways.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Yep, the Conemaugh and the Kiski both hold trout these days. Truly remarkable when I think back to the days when I was a kid when they bothranfull of water that looked more likeorange juice

RE: PA antler restriction
 

If you understood high grading you wouldn't have referenced high grading the gene pool in this post.

No, that is not true at all. Prior to ARs , the buck harvest consisted of a random sample of the entire legal buck population. With ARs we are selectively harvesting the best buck with the highest potential for antler development.

I am not citing my definition of high grading, I am citing Dr. Demarais's definition. You better reread his example of high grading a timber stand and maybe the light will go on.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

This takes me back a few weeks. We argued this one as well, did we not?
I'm sure Bluebird will contradict the expert (he sometimes claims to admire when it suits him), in short order.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

prior to AR's we were taking almost ALL bucks with 3" spikes or better. Research showed that number to be as high as 85% on a consisitent basis. BTW the old 3" spike rule is AR as well. It simply was a much lower threshold.

Another reason for supporting AR's that won't fit into your CPA methodolgy is that a 1.5 buck has very limited survival skills when it comes to avoiding predators (man) He's equivalent to a young teenagerAllowing them a pass during the first year allows them the opportunity to learn the skills to possibly survive more than that one year it takes to grow a legal rack. The results are still sketchy at this point but the premise that a buck allowed to live beyond opening day and his first deer season is better educated and equipped to survive to maturity and reach that 4 1/2 age class simply makes common sense. The results were never expected to be huge but even a few percent more making it to that age is an improvement

RE: PA antler restriction
 

When are you and BT going to accept the fact that high grading is not about genetics. It is simply harvesting the best buck in each age class.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

If we were harvesting 85% of our 1.5 bucks , that means very few of the 1.5 buck were protected by the 3" spike rule, so that is not a factor.
Now you are just making things up to support your opinions. The antlered buck study showed that 1.5 buck had a high non-hunting survival rate, while only 20% of the 2.5+ buck survived hunting season and the majority of those buck were 2.5+ buck that weren't AR legal..

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Anyone see a problem with this statement?

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Obviously, I am simply pointing out that the 1.5 bucks saved by AR don't get a lot smarter as BT claimed and therefore only 20% of the bucks saved by AR , survive to become 3.5 buck.

Do you have a problem with that?

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Please tell us where you got your 20% number.
Assuming for a moment that the 20% is anywhere close,
20% is way better odds than they used to have. Thanks for making my point.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

In addition to making Bob's point, you are comparing two different subjects.
Sounds all official to the casual reader, but it is pointless in reality.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Why oh why do I do this?

It's the proverbial train wreck....I just can't help but click on this thread, and then I feel ashamed for doing so moments after I read it[&:]

RE: PA antler restriction
 

I already told you it came from the Antlered Buck Study. Prior to ARs the survival rate for all buck was 80%. Alt used the 85% figure from just a few WMU's in order to sell ARs.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

No, that is not true. The bucks saved by ARs need to survive non-hunting mortality before they can survive hunting season. So the two subjects are directly related.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

According to the antlered deer mortality study, post season buck mortality is less than 3% so whats your point?

http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/lib/pgc/reports/2005_wildlife/21009-04.pdf

RE: PA antler restriction
 

The point is that even though they suffer low non-hunting mortality ,only 20% survive to become 3.5 's ,so very buck ever reach 4.5 year that it takes the average spike to catch up with the avg. 1.5 6 or 8 pt. and that's why ARs result in high grading.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

LOL!That statement is one big DILLIGAF. Before AR's even fewer got to that age. How you can translate that into a deterioration of antler size over time is just ridiculous.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

I can wait, no problem here.
I'd rather have a chance to shootone4.5 year old deer every decade, thanten 1.5 year oldsper decade.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

What is even more ridiculous is that you and Livbucks can't comprehend such a simple principle as high grading. But ,when you consider a QDM guy like Kroll couldn't understand it either ,I guess I shouldn't be surprised.

What happens if you cut all the oak,cherry maple and ash from a stand and leave the beech,gum, striped maple ,red maple and hop hornbeam. What happens is you have high graded the stand and the remaining stand will have little or no value.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

If you want to increase your odds of shooting a 4.5 year old deer,shoot a big doe. But what you are really saying is you'd rather shoot a big racked buck once every 10 years than settle for a buck with a smaller rack.

In 2 G your chances of harvesting a 4.5 buck might be as much as once in 30 years and if your a rifle hunter you might easily go ten years without a chance to harvest any AR legal buck.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

So in effect everyone agrees that the current AR's have NO effect on genetics of the deer herd. It only took 31 pages!

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Duh, what a ridiculous statement. You are comparing the culling of differing species of trees to the hunting of the same species of deer. You are straying further from sensibility there fella.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

No that is not even close to what I said. What I said was is that high grading was not due to a change in the gene pool. However, the long term effects of ARs and high grading, may have a significant negative impact, in the long term, on the gene pool for the single trait of antler development. Kroll and Demarais were conducting studies on the effects of ARs on genetics ,but I haven't seen a recent report, have you?

RE: PA antler restriction
 

You only think it is ridiculous because you still don't understand the concept of high grading. Maybe if I make the example a bit clearer you may be able to grasp the principle of high grading.

Let's say the stand is 100 year old stand of red ,white and chestnut oak. Now, just for the sake of discussion, let's say 60% of the oak are marketable timber and the other 40% have defects such as too many knots, sway or rot. When the 60% is harvested , the remaining trees will compete with any new seedlings and when those seedlings mature to marketable timber ,less than 50% of the stand will be marketable.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

The entire forest does not get replaced every 3 years, so your analogy is a bit precarious at the very best.
If the bad trees were not marketable, they wouldn't leave them, because they will NEVER be marketable. Little bucks grow into big bucks and the entire herd gets replaced nearly completely every three years in Pa.
As I said, precarious.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Based on that statement, it is obvious that you know even less about timber management than you know about deer management. When a logger bids on a stand ,his bid is base on the value of the marketable timber. He doesn't give a rip about the unmarketable trees unless the contract forces him to cut those trees. Then the cost of cutting those trees is deducted from the bid price. But, most contracts do not require the removal of non-marketable trees , so they are left standing and only the good trees are harvested.

The analogy of high grading was provided by Dr. Demarais, not me, so why don't you send the good Dr. an e-mail and tell him his analogy is precarious?

RE: PA antler restriction
 

You have just reminded me why HR was necessary, and why clearcutting is the best way. That's about it.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

I have news...all timber is marketable. Some is for lumber, the rest is for pulp. Pulp big commodity. Pulp make paper, pulp make alcohol. Pulp make OSB. Pulp make lots.
Which subject do you know less of again?

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Once gain you demonstrate your ignorance of the timber industry. When the cost of harvesting a tree and converting it to a useable product ,exceeds its market value , that tree will not be harvested. Proctor & Gamble is importing pulp from south America because it is cheaper that the pulpwood harvested in NE PA. The market price for hemlock is currently so low that it doesn't pay for the cost of harvesting it.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

They want to harvest everything now, all over the country, even the cut off tops left from logging, because pulp is such a hot commodity, because of the surge in flex fuel vehicles (E85). There are groups that want the lease rights to harvest the undergrowth and brush from the forests also. They are making machines right now that are like combines that go through the forest and munch up anything 12 feet or less in height.

Hemlock is low because of the fall of the housing industry.Deciduousis generally used for pulp, not coniferous. Too much pitch in coniferous. Coniferous is good for building houses mostly.
Hemlock is mostly used for floor joists, rafters, stringers and such.
You got your spf and then your hf grades for dimensional lumber. Depends on what you need for the part of the job you are working on. Some species lend well to certain areas of a building.
Another thing making hemlock less valued is the surge in engineered joists and rafters. No wonder hem is worthless right now.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

NOW, you are thinking like SPROULE!!

this is why i say,LET THE AR BE FOR ALL OF US,STOP THE JUNIOR EXEMPTION,let bucks mature.;)

RE: PA antler restriction
 

????? Huh??? I hunt in 2g in the Bennezette area and I have have had the chance to shoot a legal AR buck in 4 of the last 5 years during rifle season. I have had some nice 120-130 class bucks come to about 50-60 yards in bow season. Just curious, how does AR reduce your chances to harvest a 6 point or bigger????? It has only helped this very problem.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

is that restaurant still open run by a guy name ben?

RE: PA antler restriction
 

There are only a few plants available that are currently producing ethanol from wood and they use waste from saw mills as feed stock. A new plant being built in Mi. won't be on-line until 2011. Currently there is very little demand for wood chips produced by whole tree chippers.

Getting back to ARs , are you aware 2 out of 3 working groups in Arkansas voted to repeal ARs in 2007?

http://www.agfc.com/!userfiles/pdfs/deer/DeerPlanJune2007AGFCStaff_Workshops_Report.pdf

RE: PA antler restriction
 

The one on winslow hill is still open if that's the one your talking about. Of course there is the hotel and the store there that have the restaurant's too.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

here is a picture of a 1.5 year old buck. What do you think he would grow to look like BB.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

You see I wouldn't pop him. I aint BB but I owuld not shoot that little buck. I have passed on those size bucks and let em' grow some.Just one more chance to see some large racks evenrually. I do not think the 8 guys in my camp and some under 16 would pop that buck either. We are preaching rack hunting and growth and food plots, winter feeding. But I only control my 90 acres.I know the Amish have around 800 some acres next door and I garuantee it would be dead right now. That buck would be on the hay wagon they pull across the valley loading the deer on at the end of the day! I would say that buck has potential??

RE: PA antler restriction
 

I'd say he would be a good buck at 2.5 and a real trophy at 4.5.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

We finally have some common ground after all Buck!