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RE: PA antler restriction
So according to you the main reason for implementing ARs was to keep 1.5 buck from running themselves ragged during the rut? If that is true then the PGC is ven more incompetent than I thought they were.
Regardless,he never claimed the size of our 2.5 year old bucks would increase.When you testify for the USP,do yourself a favor and leave that part out. Why would you say that ,when judges actually trained to read and evaluate what is written , rather than trying to read the mind of whoever wrote what they are reading? More and larger bucks means exactly what it says , no matter how you try to twist it to mean what you want it to mean. |
RE: PA antler restriction
ORIGINAL: bluebird2 Now take that little fact into consideration and rememvber that part of PA's planto harvest more does before the rut begins to make more sense. Less does available by rut time means a larger percentage gets bred in their first estrous cycle helpingto cause less late births. Also, letting some bucks live through the concurrent gun season , provides breeding bucks for this years doe fawns who will attain the body necessary weight and come into estrous in mid December. Prior to AR's a doe coming into estrous after the buck season was hard pressed to find a buck to breed her. That isn't even close to being true. There were always enough buck carried over to breed the few numbers of fawns that came into estrus after the buck season. ARs protect the highest percentage of buck in areas like 2G and fawn breeding rates are still some of the worst in the state. You also have shown no evidence that "there were always enough bucks carried over to breed the few number of fawns that came into strus after thebuck season" Using 2G for your example is especially ludicrous because doe fawns canonly come into estrous in their first year after attaining a bodyweight of approximately 80 pounds. Age in months of a female fawn is not relevant in this issue, body mass is the relevant factor and 2G is the WMU least likely to have doe fawns reach that weight in their first year. |
RE: PA antler restriction
You have twisted my point. the point is that high grading is not the problem you claim because 1.5 year old spikes are no necessarily genetically inferior just as 1.5 year old 8 points are not necessarily demonstrating superior genes You also have shown no evidence that "there were always enough bucks carried over to breed the few number of fawns that came into strus after the buck season" Using 2G for your example is especially ludicrous because doe fawns can only come into estrous in their first year after attaining a body weight of approximately 80 pounds. Age in months of a female fawn is not relevant in this issue, body mass is the relevant factor and 2G is the WMU least likely to have doe fawns reach that weight in their first year. |
RE: PA antler restriction
Once again you demonstrate you don't even understand the basic principle behind high grading. high grading does not occur due to a change in the genetics of the herd. High grading occurs because the average 1.5 spike takes longer to develop than a 1.5 ,8 pt. Therefore, the average spike may become a 2.5 , 5 pt. while the 1.5 8 pt. that was harvested as a 1.5 buck ,would have become a 10 pt. Harvesting the best buck in each age class will always result in smaller average rack sizes. |
RE: PA antler restriction
ORIGINAL: rybohunter Sproul, I kind of agree with you for once, but where we differ is creating rules around outlaws. I'd like ot see more enforcement & people turning in poachers and those that circumvent the rules. But with an already under funded PGC the increased enforcement isnt likely to happen. Laws can only go so far, it is up to the mindset of the people to carry things a bit farther. The C&R movement in fishing has had way more success than the thought of passing on a legal but small/young buck in the hunting. With the mindset of the Average PA hunter, it will be a LONG time before that way of thinking is broken. And as for the other debate with the more & bigger bucks statement....In places where the herd reduction has not been dramatically implemented, that statement holds a ton of truth. Granted those places are few & far between, but I have seen the numbers of big bucks jump. not to get off the AR, i fish many state bass tournaments. this year in many of the lakes here in northcentral pa.the bass SPAWNED late. they were on beds come the first week of bass. i saw MORE bass females caught and KEPT that were still full of eggs. word went like wildfire,HEY GUYS, BASS ARE ON BEDS,GO GET UM. boy did they hurt lakes that took all of us years to build up,they did it in 1 week this year. the fisherman i saw doing this also ALL looked like greedy a holes with their stringers full of egg laden bass. every other word out of their mouths was f this,F that etc. these are same people that will shoot any buck and clean any doe/fawn out of area. sorry i got off topic.:eek: |
RE: PA antler restriction
Other than the discredited findings of one Maverick biologist, you have no basis for that statement. Anyone who's ever been anywhere near a courtroom knows that there is always at least one "expert" witness available (read that as quack!) to support any theory! You have the shaky incomplete results from one flawed study versus the rest of the wildlife management science community. I think you are the one who doesn't understand. |
RE: PA antler restriction
interesting reading info you all have.
add in myinfo from GROUND LEVEL, we could write book.:D |
RE: PA antler restriction
ORIGINAL: bluebird2 Other than the discredited findings of one Maverick biologist, you have no basis for that statement. Anyone who's ever been anywhere near a courtroom knows that there is always at least one "expert" witness available (read that as quack!) to support anytheory! You have the shaky incomplete results from one flawed study versus the rest of the wildlife management science community. I think you are the one who doesn't understand. Dr. Demarais happens to have 12 years of harvest data to support his position, which is more than any other biologist. His position is also supported by Larry Castle , Dr. Williams and Dr. Kroll, even though Dr. Kroll is so biased he doesn't realize it. In fact the entire staff of the Miss. deer management unit supports Dr. Demarais's position ,which is why they changed to spread restrictions in 2007. |
RE: PA antler restriction
Alt did in fact mention using a spread restriction instead of a point restriction. But he also mentioned two other preferred options for increasing the buck age structure and let's see if you remember what they were?
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RE: PA antler restriction
gary alt was at lock haven university to explain the AR/HR.
we packed the house. he said,FOLKS,HERE IS HORNS YOU WILL HAVE IF YOU DO THE HR FOR PGC,he then held up a 8 point rack. then he said,REMEMBER, ONLY SHOOT OLDER DOE,LEAVE FAWNS GO. well, i could see those beef jerky looking back strap hunters licking their lips. they could not wait to shoot a lot of doe and FAWNS . now, those SAME hunters boo hoo to the SPROUL. no deer,sproul. unreal.........:eek: |
RE: PA antler restriction
ORIGINAL: bluebird2 Alt did in fact mention using a spread restriction instead of a point restriction. But he also mentioned two other preferred options for increasing the buck age structure and let's see if you remember what they were? painted yourself into a corner so we duck the subject with a little memory challenge eh? I beleive there were actually more than two rattled off but all were deemed to be not socially feasible. Therefore none were "preferred as you call them" The most effective but also the most socially unworkable one, of course, was to limit buck tags for all weapons and seasons. Funny, in spite of all the "data" you've provided to claim that AR's promote high grading that the very state you use for your example still has AR. They have simply inproved their method |
RE: PA antler restriction
BTbowhunter,Sorry but I'm used to referring to bluebird as beenthere or BT.
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RE: PA antler restriction
ORIGINAL: DougE BTbowhunter,Sorry but I'm used to referring to bluebird as beenthere or BT. |
RE: PA antler restriction
Funny, in spite of all the "data" you've provided to claim that AR's promote high grading that the very state you use for your example still has AR. They have simply inproved their method Remember that Kroll said he would still favor ARs even it did nothing to improve the herd . That shows the inherent bias of QDM supporters just as Miss shows the same bias.. |
RE: PA antler restriction
Now you're showing your true colors. Wildlife management is not an exact science. Expecting immediate black and white results just shows your lack of understanding of the dynamics of deer management. Too many variables exist for the simplistic conclusions you tend to draw.
Managing a deer herd requires a biologist not a CPA. I challenge your claim as to what Dr Kroll said. It's either a boldface lie or another example of your clever use of two or more unrelated statements taken out of context to produce your desired result. |
RE: PA antler restriction
I challenge your claim as to what Dr Kroll said. It's either a boldface lie or another example of your clever use of two or more unrelated statements taken out of context to produce your desired result. Even if having size limits on bucks were management neutral activity ( meaning they didn't improve the herd), I'd still support this practice I added the words in parenthesis. I do not expect immediate black and white results as you claim. But when ARs reduce the average rack size after 4 years and they continue the same failed practice for 12 years with the same result ,something is definitely wrong with APRs. |
RE: PA antler restriction
ORIGINAL: bluebird2 I challenge your claim as to what Dr Kroll said. It's either a boldface lie or another example of your clever use of two or more unrelated statements taken out of context to produce your desired result. Even if having size limits on bucks were management neutral activity ( meaning they didn't improve the herd), I'd still support this practice I added the words in parenthesis. I do not expect immediate black and white results as you claim. But when ARs reduce the average rack size after 4 years and they continue the same failed practice for 12 years with the same result ,something is definitely wrong with APRs. As for your claim that rack size has deteriorated over the past 4 years.....  I'll let the members of this forum decide on the validity of that one!  |
RE: PA antler restriction
BTbowhunter, my question is, does AR stand for antler restriction or Apollo-Ridge. just kidding. im from up near Saltsburg. couldnt resist the temptation. i think this subject has been beat to death.
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RE: PA antler restriction
Just had to enter your own words into his quote didn't you? Why did you feel the need to do that? What is even more amazing is the reasons Kroll gave for the need for ARs. Here is the first one. First,the average age of hunters is increasing annually. |
RE: PA antler restriction
ORIGINAL: bluebird2 Just had to enter your own words into his quote didn't you? Why did you feel the need to do that? What is even more amazing is the reasons Kroll gave for the need for ARs. Here is the first one. First,the average age of hunters is increasing annually. Now you go one step further possibly because you are running low on quoted statements to spin so now you insert your own words to "help" us understand what YOU think he meant. Pathetic |
RE: PA antler restriction
ORIGINAL: Mr. Slim BTbowhunter, my question is, does AR stand for antler restriction or Apollo-Ridge. just kidding. im from up near Saltsburg. couldnt resist the temptation. i think this subject has been beat to death. Kiski country! My dad lives near saltsburg and I do a bit of hunting out that way myself and I fish the Conemaugh a bit. No fish there though;)especially in the lake;) |
RE: PA antler restriction
Here is the second reason he gave for implementing ARs.
Second, the number of hunters are decreasing(as much as 10% in the last five years |
RE: PA antler restriction
We need more BBR's(bluebird restrictions) in here.;)
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RE: PA antler restriction
Kinda like that booger you just cant seem to flick away;)
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RE: PA antler restriction
ORIGINAL: rybohunter We need more BBR's(bluebird restrictions) in here.;) here's Kroll's third and most interesting reason for ARs. And last, deer populations are increasing. Hunting has not been controlling the deer herds in North America. |
RE: PA antler restriction
Once again, you use only the little slices that suit you. Why not type or scan in the whole article?
Oh, I know, that would fail to support your position! FLICK.....still here....FLICK.......stil here.....FLICK... still here |
RE: PA antler restriction
You were the first one to raise the issue of Dr. Kroll's article and claimed that he pointed out the flaws in the Miss. study. As yet you have provided nothing valid,from the article to support your position. It would be a copyright violation to post the entire article, but you are free to provide quotes to support your position, if you can find one.
Dr. Krolls article does nothing to refute the findings of Dr. DEmarais studies in Miss. and it does nothing to support a need for ARs in PA. |
RE: PA antler restriction
FLICK!!!
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RE: PA antler restriction
I understand your frustration. You opened a can of worms for AR supporters with that article by Kroll and now you can't find anything to defend it. Before , I thought kroll did some good research, but since he now shows he doesn't understand the concept of high grading, I wonder how much he really knows about the effects of ARs.
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RE: PA antler restriction
And when can we expect to see your research and conclusions in print? Other than in the USP magazine that is.
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RE: PA antler restriction
If you want to see them in print, just print out my posts so you can read them over and over again until the truth finally sinks in.
The fact that you couldn't provide a coherent response to support any of Kroll's reasons for ARs ,shows you really don't understand the issues involved and all you care about is seeing more older bucks with big racks. Until you or anyone else can provide a study that shows conclusively that ARs benefit the herd, then it is reasonable to conclude that ARs are simply implemented to encourage hunters to reduce the herd while appeasing trophy hunters and misleading the average hunter. |
RE: PA antler restriction
Hey BB2, I haven't seen you respond to the fact that you can't tell what kind of genetics a deer has at 1.5. You keep saying that at 2.5 the antler size of the smaller 1.5 old saved by AR will be smaller than the 1.5 that was shot (meaningif both buck were allowed to live the smaller buck would still be smaller at 2.5). But there are numerous studies that show that at 4.5 the bucks that were smaller at 1.5 actually grow larger antlers. Doesn't this prove that high grading can't happen consitently because you can't tell anything about a bucks genetics at 1.5 but until both buck have matured and now show their true genetics? So because we kill most buck by the time they are 3.5 in PA how will we ever know the true genetics of our deer.
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RE: PA antler restriction
Thank you asking that question in a non-confrontational manner. It is a very good question that deserves an honest answer and the answer is that high grading does not occur due to a change in the gene pool,although in the long term it may result in a change in the gene pool. High grading is simply harvesting the best buck in each age class,which leaves the smaler buck with less potential for THE RATE OF ANTLER DEVELOPMENT, to advance to the next age class.
Here is a quote from from Dr. Demarais that explains it in their terms. There’s no doubt using an antler restriction can be a very effective management strategy to alter the age struc- ture of the buck harvest and population. In many cases The effectiveness of an antler restriction designed to protect smaller-antlered young bucks within an age class can be a source of problems. Are the protected bucks the ones you want growing older? The answer depends on your harvest goals. Remember that just about any sample of older bucks will have larger antlers, on aver- age, than a similar sample of younger bucks. So if you are interested only in harvesting deer with larger antlers, a simple antler restriction protecting younger bucks, even if they are of lower antler quality, can be effective. But if your goal is to improve antler quality in older age classes, such an antler restriction may not be the best long-term approach. Protecting smaller-antlered bucks and harvesting larg- er-antlered bucks within an age class reduces average antler size in older age classes – if antler development in younger bucks predicts future antler development. This is called “high grading” and is similar to removing better- quality timber and leaving lower-quality timber for later harvest (Photo 1). |
RE: PA antler restriction
Unlike Bluebirds quotes, these appear in their entirety. I could probaly clip a line here and a phrase there but that method could be misleading as we've all seen here...
From Dr Krolls Blog: Deer develop differently: A yearling spike buck stands just as good a chance of growing into a quality buck as a yearling counterpart with six, eight or 10 points. Kroll made that determination after an 11-year study of free-ranging whitetails. “Deer are like people,” he said. “They develop at a different pace. The kid who is smaller than his classmates in the first grade may be the biggest kid in his graduating class. Besides, young bucks disperse from their home territories at an early age. In our spike buck study, we were only able to recapture 12 percent of the bucks that we collared. The others wound up on the neighbor’s ranch. The neighbor gets your bucks and you get his bucks.” Fromhis 12 year spike buck study: "We divided all of the yearling bucks we captured into two categories," Dr. Kroll continues. "Yearlings that had only spikes or 3-point antlers were in one category, and yearlings with four or more antler points on their first set were in the other. We did this because we reasoned that these two classes of yearling bucks are easy for hunters to identify. We got some very interesting results on the 2 1/2- and 3 1/2-year-old bucks that were recaptured, but the age of 4 1/2 is where the results were the most dramatic. "Studies repeatedly have shown that whitetail bucks do not reach maturity until four years of age, and by the time the bucks in our study had reached 4 1/2, there was no significant difference in any of the antler measurements, no matter what the buck started out with his first year. The antlers were just as wide, just as heavy and had just as many points. Furthermore, there was no significant difference in gross B&C score," he says. Many of the bucks that had been yearling spikes had grown 130-inch racks by age 4 1/2. Ironically, the average B&C score of all bucks killed across Texas each year is about 131 inches. "It appears from our data that the spikes and 3-pointers are genetically equal at birth to multi-point yearlings for antler growth potential," Dr. Kroll concludes. "It just seems to take some deer a little longer to show their capability. The trick is, you have to let them grow up before it becomes obvious. Genetics certainly is an interesting aspect of whitetail management, and fun to debate around the campfire, but genetics is the least important of all the factors leading to the production of quality bucks." So should spikes, or, for that matter, any bucks, ever be culled from the herd? According to Dr. Kroll, perhaps in some cases. "...culling bucks is a very complicated issue," Dr. Kroll says. "In our opinion, instead of trying to cull bucks, landowners and hunters are far better off focusing their attention on things they can do something about, such as nutrition. Today the question of shooting more does is the only issue that generates as much controversy as that of what to do about spike bucks, and that's a no-brainer. We should all do our part in trying to shoot more does. It's essential for the welfare of the herd." It's very clear that the size of a bucks antlers at 1.5 mean nothing when predicting his antlers at maturity. The only way we could high grade the gene pool is to not shoot bucks till they reach 4 1/2 and then take the best ones out. High grading before that age is a myth. |
RE: PA antler restriction
We went over this prior and my contention was that high grading can't happen on 1.5 year old bucks. The rack development is dictated by external factors too much at that age. Somehow the idea didn't get across when I wassaying it. Too much dilution of nutrition and birth date at 1.5 to have the harvesting of a certain characteristic make any difference. Did we not agree that a 1.5 year old spike can have the potential to grow a 12 point (example) rack, if left to it's devices?
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RE: PA antler restriction
ORIGINAL: BTBowhunter Unlike Bluebirds quotes, these appear in their entirety. I could probaly clip a line here and a phrase there but that method could be misleading as we've all seen here... From Dr Krolls Blog: Deer develop differently: A yearling spike buck stands just as good a chance of growing into a quality buck as a yearling counterpart with six, eight or 10 points. Kroll made that determination after an 11-year study of free-ranging whitetails. “Deer are like people,” he said. “They develop at a different pace. The kid who is smaller than his classmates in the first grade may be the biggest kid in his graduating class. Besides, young bucks disperse from their home territories at an early age. In our spike buck study, we were only able to recapture 12 percent of the bucks that we collared. The others wound up on the neighbor’s ranch. The neighbor gets your bucks and you get his bucks.” Fromhis 12 year spike buck study: "We divided all of the yearling bucks we captured into two categories," Dr. Kroll continues. "Yearlings that had only spikes or 3-point antlers were in one category, and yearlings with four or more antler points on their first set were in the other. We did this because we reasoned that these two classes of yearling bucks are easy for hunters to identify. We got some very interesting results on the 2 1/2- and 3 1/2-year-old bucks that were recaptured, but the age of 4 1/2 is where the results were the most dramatic. "Studies repeatedly have shown that whitetail bucks do not reach maturity until four years of age, and by the time the bucks in our study had reached 4 1/2, there was no significant difference in any of the antler measurements, no matter what the buck started out with his first year. The antlers were just as wide, just as heavy and had just as many points. Furthermore, there was no significant difference in gross B&C score," he says. Many of the bucks that had been yearling spikes had grown 130-inch racks by age 4 1/2. Ironically, the average B&C score of all bucks killed across Texas each year is about 131 inches. "It appears from our data that the spikes and 3-pointers are genetically equal at birth to multi-point yearlings for antler growth potential," Dr. Kroll concludes. "It just seems to take some deer a little longer to show their capability. The trick is, you have to let them grow up before it becomes obvious. Genetics certainly is an interesting aspect of whitetail management, and fun to debate around the campfire, but genetics is the least important of all the factors leading to the production of quality bucks." So should spikes, or, for that matter, any bucks, ever be culled from the herd? According to Dr. Kroll, perhaps in some cases. "...culling bucks is a very complicated issue," Dr. Kroll says. "In our opinion, instead of trying to cull bucks, landowners and hunters are far better off focusing their attention on things they can do something about, such as nutrition. Today the question of shooting more does is the only issue that generates as much controversy as that of what to do about spike bucks, and that's a no-brainer. We should all do our part in trying to shoot more does. It's essential for the welfare of the herd." It's very clear that the size of a bucks antlers at 1.5 mean nothing when predicting his antlers at maturity. The only way we could high grade the gene pool is to not shoot bucks till they reach 4 1/2 and then take the best ones out. High grading before that age is a myth. oh my, ole sproul would have the big one ,HERE I COME EDITH.:D |
RE: PA antler restriction
I'm with ya Sproul:D
How about we make it does only for three years at a stretch and then a buck seaon every fourth year?;) |
RE: PA antler restriction
ORIGINAL: livbucks We went over this prior and my contention was that high grading can't happen on 1.5 year old bucks. The rack development is dictated by external factors too much at that age. Somehow the idea didn't get across when I wassaying it. Too much dilution of nutrition and birth date at 1.5 to have the harvesting of a certain characteristic make any difference. Did we not agree that a 1.5 year old spike can have the potential to grow a 12 point (example) rack, if left to it's devices? |
RE: PA antler restriction
bt, im not far from conemaugh dam. havent fished the river in years though ive heard of people catching some decent fish out of there. my brother fishes right below the dam for carp. some big ones in there. i see people fishing right below the saltsburg bridge quite often. the guy that owns the bait shop across from kiski prep told me that a few trout have been caught down where black leggs creek runs into the river. might be worth a try sometime. have fun with the AR subject. seems like its got everyone wound up.
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RE: PA antler restriction
It's very clear that the size of a bucks antlers at 1.5 mean nothing when predicting his antlers at maturity. The only way we could high grade the gene pool is to not shoot bucks till they reach 4 1/2 and then take the best ones out. High grading before that age is a myth. While it is true that no one can tell the potential of a 1.5 buck, Dr. Kroll's research shows that a 1.5 spike takes 3 years to catch up with a 1.5 6 pt. So while we don't know the potential of the spike we do know that the 6 pt. has more potential to develop a large rack quicker than the spike. But, because the 6 pt. is harvested as a 1.5 it never comes close to reaching its potential and the spike may be legal as a 2.5 and not live long enough to demonstrate that it had the potential to become an 8 pt. This results in smaller average rack sizes for 2.5 buck due to ARs. |
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