RE: PA antler restriction
 

Are you asking exactly when they DID, or disputing that they did??

RE: PA antler restriction
 

I'm asking when the change was made. I think it was a few years ago ,but Im not sure.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

I personally like the restriction, but I can understand where you're coming from. Last year I had a buck trotting along in rifle season and I wasn't 100% sure he was legal when he was at 40 yards broadside. I got him to stop at about 100 yards quartering away and could see he had atleast 3 on his right side. I took a much more difficult shot and ended up only wounding him. I tracked/pushed him for about a mile and chased him right to my brother who finished the deal. The deer ended up being a 5 point with a 15 inch spread and a good sized deer, not a yearling. I did see 2 yearling 4 points the same day that I could have easily got one of them. And then hunting the same spot in archery 3 weeks earlier I had 4 little yearlings of 4 points or less circleing under my treestand going crazy over my golden estrus wick and my doe bleat call. It gives me some hope that maybe one of them will be a decent 8 this year as a 2.5 year old. Or that even one of them will make it another year and be a better 3.5 year old next season where before the restriction I am not sure any of them would have made it. JMO

RE: PA antler restriction
 

i thought the subject was about antler restriction. whats all the fuss about WMU 2b. all WMU's have AR. kind of lost interest in this posting.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

big earl, the AR is very fine idea, i like it but it MUST be tweaked.

too many hunters are just shooting at ANY buck if they have kid under 16 in gang or kids tag.

here is what SPROUL would like too see.

only at 12 yr old his first year hunting can shoot a buck under the AR rule.

this would be big help .

only a hunter 12/16 can shoot a doe,no more doe hunting for us.

now, this is in WMU2G only as our deer are very few.:eek:

RE: PA antler restriction
 

if the PGC is going to keep the AR, then all WMU should have the same number of points. not some with 4 points and some with 6 points. lets make it equal for everyone. in one of my previous posts i mentioned that rifle hunters should get the same amount of time to hunt as the bow hunters. please dont tell me to take up bow hunting. been there and done that and didnt like it. bow hunting is not for me. all im asking is to be able to hunt does after Xmas if with a rifle if one is not harvested during the rifle season. not everyone has the time or vacation to take off during the regular hunting season. i feel this would be a fair thing to do.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Here is my take on the situation. You need more then just genetics for a big rack. You need more then just a food source to get a big rack. There are alot of things needed and a combination of all for the big racks. The anter restrictions are now providing it. For those that have been hunting for 15 years or more, think back. It was nothing that on the first day of rifle season to see 30+ deer in a day. Right? Out of those deer that you saw 99% of those deer where doe or button bucks. Now fastforward to today. In a season (Archery and Rifle) I may only see 30 - 40 deer total. But what I am seeing is a mix of about 3 - 1 doe to buck ratio. About every 3 bucks that I see, one is a shooter by state standards. Does anter restrictions work yes for those that want to see more bigger bucks, but if you want to see 30+ deer when in the woods then no antler restrictions don't.

Here is another thing to think about. What is theaverageweight of the deer that are taken now as to then? I don't have the proof right now, but I would have to say that the bucks are averaging over 140 lbs now to back then they averaged maybe 110. That to me is a sign of a healthier herd.

For the guys that are out of state with out antler restrictions, what is the herd like there? How many deer are you seeing when you go out on an average day?

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Well, I live and hunt in NYS and NEVER in my 30 years of hunting have I seen 30+ deer in a day or even that many in an entire season. In the last 20 + season I have failed to bring home at least one deer only once, but never have I seen deer in the numbers you are talking about. Maybe you guys hunt some suburban areas where there are more deer than trees, but I can assure you that in many more rural areas of NYS and many Northeastern regions you don't have deer in such numbers. Antler restrictions can't possible help things in such areas.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Mr slim, your answer from a lot of these bow divas is going to be flintlock after Christmas and inline early season. I would like to see all muzzlew loaders legal after Christmas. The don't want you to have a Xbow, they don't want you to gun hunt etc etc etc, So do what they say and bow hunt or stay out of the woods as they have earned and are the real hunters. As far as AR, I like them but agree it should be 3 or 4 consistent statewide!

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Since we no longer can have any kind of "seasons", just open the hunting up to anything goes year round, no limits.
Just buy a license and do what ever you want.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Steve,
I am not familiar with NYS. Where is that. I guessit wasn't like that then all over the state when I started hunting then. I hunted in the southwest portion of the state in Greene, Fayette and Somerset counties. When hunting in Greene county the first Saturday of the season I remember I was sitting in a valley of State Game Lands and had so many deer run, the best estimate that I can give as at least 40 deer total from different groups ran in.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

In your previous post you asked out of state hunters what their deer herd looked like. I am from New York state (NYS) and I can honestly say that I have never seen deer in such numbers in the more rural parts of the state. The same holds true for many of the more rural parts of the Northeast US. Many hunters see very few in an entire season, nevermind 30 or more in one day. You should consider yourself lucky that you have such a spot to hunt. Many people do not. In numerous areas of my home state they don't even issue doe permits. So with antler restrictions a person hunting an area like this could not shoot a doe and needed to wait for a buck of at least 6 or 8 points before he could take a shot. I would think it would be more wise for this person to stay in bed than to bother to go out and waste his time hunting.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

In the old days when I use to hunt upstate at deer camp there was no concurrent buck/doe season and because I only got thereone week a year with no preseason scoutingI was lucky to see a buck. Some times three or four years in between bringing home a buck. NEVER once did I consider hunting a waste of time.The anticipation of the coming seasonand all that goes with it, the prep, equipment checks, sighting in the gun kept me coming back year after year.Time in the woods is never wasted!!!!!!!Deer or no deer.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Thats not what I have now, and I am glad that I don't. I am talking back when I first started hunting 18 years ago.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Even 25 years ago our adult breeding B/D ratio was around 1:2 and now it may be around 1:1.75 and that difference would not be noticed by a hunter in the field. As yet their is no evidence that ARs have produced the predicted results of higher breeding rates or productivity.


As yet, there is no credible evidence that shows the average weight or antler size of 2.5+ buck has increase. Any increase in the weight of the average buck being harvested can be attributed to the fact that it is illegal to harvest the smaller buck in each age class. There is also no evidence that shows the health of our herd ,as defined by the PGC ,has improved.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

[quote]Even 25 years ago our adult breeding B/D ratio was around 1:2 This is about the best credible evidence that I could think of. I don't think these where the pictures we would have seen 10 years ago.

http://www.pgc.state.pa.us/pgc/cwp/view.asp?a=519&q=173372

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Actually that is not even being close to credible evidence. There are pictures in the PGN's going back to the 40 or 50's with racks which would easily match those pics.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

OK I will agree with you on that, but I wasn't around in the 40s and 50s to compare. I was around in the late 80s and early 90s and I know what it was like then and I as well as others like the now.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

What kind of credible evidence would you like then? To actually have one of those standing right in front of you to believe it?

RE: PA antler restriction
 

I agree with you, I don't consider it a waste of time either. In many low deer density areas in my home state people are not allowed to shoot a doe and if they are only allowed to shoot a buck with 6 or 8 points they will be going deerless more times than not. If there isn't much for them to look forward to in terms of hunting success, I don't think their interest in hunting will be long lived. Yeah, I agree that hunting isn't all about killing, but then again there are plenty of other things someone could be doing instead of hunting and still be enjoying the outdoors and nature. Hunting is not the only way to enjoy nature. The truth is that hunting isn't all about killing something, but being successful will surely keep you interested in it way MORE than not being successful will!

RE: PA antler restriction
 

When the PGC releases the results of their annual buck survey and it shows that the rack sizes and body weight of the 2.5+,8 pt buck increased significantly , that would be credible evidence I would accept. But, after 6 years of ARs ,the PGC is still reluctant to release that data. I wonder why!!!

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Do they even have such a list avalible, and if so here is it located? Just curious

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Bluebird is that why you have an axe to grind? Because you are disabled and old? Let me tell you something. I have diabetes, heart disease and glaucoma (from being poisoned by an experimental prescripted medicine) I have lost clarity and 90% of my peripheral vision and I still can see the forest through the trees. Antler restrictions are a good start towards better deer management!

pahunter - be patient -- I hear that hunting in Pennsylvania has changed dramatically in most areas for the better. Those that lose interest in hunting because they did not get their way over something like AR's did not have their heart in the sport and subsequently could not care about the best interests of the deer herd. Perhaps your dad is just in a middle aged slump. Hopefully, with your help and continued interest, you can rekindle his flame.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

The PGC has refused to release the data from the annual antlered buck surveys. When I ask Dr. Rosenberry if ARs increased the rack sizes of the average 2.5+ buck , he said he didn't know if ARs increased or decreased rack sizes.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Here is another quote on ARs from Miss.
We had good habitat and a good B/D ratio before ARs and our herd was below the MSY carrying capacity,so there is no reason to expect ARs would increase the average rack size of 2.5+ buck in PA.
Even Alt admitted ARs were not the best way to improve the age structure of the buck herd , but he believed it was the only method he could sell to the hunters to get them to shoot more doe.

Sorry to hear about you illnesses. I guess I am in pretty good shape compared to many of my fellow hunters of my age so I try not to complain or let it interfere with my hunting.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Why do you constantly try to imply that someone in the PGC claimed the average rack size of 2.5 year old bucks would increase?Please post a link to that claim.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

I posted it many times in the past and you and other responded by claiming the written word didn't say what was clearly state. That is," in the long term hunters would likely see more and larger buck than ever before." The only way that could be true is if ARs resulted in larger 2.5+ buck than before ARs.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

well, sproul needs to respond.

hunting has not gone way it should in WMU2G .

pgc/dcnr went to far on the overharvest of doe/fawns.

i blame hunters also for putting MEAT before sportsmanship.

here is what i see.being we are talking AR .

the bucks i am seeing killed are not to old, like 2.5 years old but have bigger racks than years ago.

this is not from food in my opinion ,its because of AR restriction.

we would kill off our bucks before they would get to 2.5 years old.
some of big racks i got years ago and now, most are 3.5 year old deer.

problem is the AR will not work AS IT SHOULD unless we stop this exemption for kids under 16.

all this does is lets crews shoot at any deer,or as said,brown its down with kid tag.
its being done and done all over the state.

this is why i suggested at pgc meeting that ONLY KID 12/16 should be able to kill a doe,no buck UNLESS the horns are 3 points to side.

this would keep kid interested until he is 17, then he can hunt buck only along with rest of us.

if dads,uncles, friends would ABIDE by rules and let kids shoot the bucks under 3 points, i would still be in favor of letting them hunt those bucks even tho it hurts a buck getting to 2.5 years old or longer.

no AR is going to work if BROWN ITS DOWN group has it real nice now..

here is example, i interviewd crew that killed more bucks than doe, think about it,all were under the 3 point rule bucks.

load truck with kids and carry kids tags, oh boy, we got best of both worlkds but the AR is not working with this happening.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

The majority of bucks harvested in 2007 were still 1.5 buck and very few of the 2.5+ buck were 3.5 years old since only 20% of the 2.5+ buck survive to become 3.5 + buck.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

I never denied that Alt was stupid for saying that we'd have more and bigger bucks than ever before.That's simply impossible to achieve when you plan on reducing the herd by about 50%.Regardless,it's just as ridiculous that you would take that statement and twist it to mean that the average size of 2.5 year old bucks would increase.You know darn well what he meant.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

I think it is funny that you accuse me of twisting what was clearly stated, when it is you that are twisting the words because you know it isn't true. What you are apparently forgetting is that when Alt was selling ARs he said the purpose was to improve the buck age structure ,which would improve the breeding ecology and older ,bigger dominant buck would do most of the breeding which would result in improved genetics and larger racked buck.

If Alt would have just misspoke during a presentation , you might have a point. But, the PGC continued to repeat that claim for 5 years in the Digest and it still appears on the PGC website. The average hunter,especially younger hunters who might be a bit more gullible, would have little reason not to believe the PGC, if they wanted more and larger buck.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

on privateland where BUCKS are left go to they reach ,say over 3 years old and have the 4 point to side restriction, all that i have seen have big racks.

i dont want to see that in wmu2g but if we continue to let the junior hunters and ILLEGAL brown its down with kids tag groupsshoot the little bucks, only a few will reach2 year old deer.

also the late muzzleloader season is too late and if horns drop, they are shot for doe or hunters take a stick and break horns off the little bucks.

that we cant stop but we could the ones that drop their horns by shortening season in muzzleloader.

if we dont stop thinking of MEAT and FILLING FREEZER , i cant see how any program to improve deer numbers or health is going to work.

i interviewd a kid after deer season.

i said,DID YOU GET BUCK?

here is what he said and he is 19 years old.

SPROUL, HELL WITH THOSE HORNS AND BUCK, I AM AFTER DEER JERKY.

there you go, no sportsmanship, no sitting around fire hoping for chance at nice buck,preserving the fawns,only GET THAT BEEF JERKY AND BOTTLE OF PEPSI.:eek:

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Sproul,
I kind of agree with you for once, but where we differ is creating rules around outlaws. I'd like ot see more enforcement & people turning in poachers and those that circumvent the rules. But with an already under funded PGC the increased enforcement isnt likely to happen.
Laws can only go so far, it is up to the mindset of the people to carry things a bit farther. The C&R movement in fishing has had way more success than the thought of passing on a legal but small/young buck in the hunting. With the mindset of the Average PA hunter, it will be a LONG time before that way of thinking is broken.

And as for the other debate with the more & bigger bucks statement....In places where the herd reduction has not been dramatically implemented, that statement holds a ton of truth. Granted those places are few & far between, but I have seen the numbers of big bucks jump.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Alt was clearly mistaken when he claimed we'd have more and bigger bucks than ever before.He did not however,claim the 2.5 year old bucks would be bigger,regardless of howdeep you look into that statement.I think he was clearly trying to say that we'd have more and bigger bucks because we were saving a higher percentage of 1.5 year old bucks which would allowMORE bucks to makeit into older age classesthus making them BIGGER.He never even mentioned the size of the 2.5 year old bucks changing.Furthermore,age has nothing to do with genetics and studies show that antler size in not indicative of what bucks will do the breeding.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

He may have been trying to say what you think he meant, but he didn't. He said there would be more and larger buck than ever before and the only way we would have larger buck than before ARs is if the size of the 2.5+ increased. Also, note that the PGC removed that claim from the Digest this year because it was clearly wrong and misleading. They also changed the claim that we should pass on BB to offset the doe heavy B/D ratio.
That is true and it means we will have more inferior 2.5+ buck doing the breeding, which is the exact opposite of what Alt was claiming.

What do you think dominant breeding was supposed to accomplish? Was it supposed to create smaller 2.5+ buck or were they just supposed be more macho?

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Here's a little tidbit that old Bluebird knows about but has left out.

This is from Dr Krolls conclusions regarding Dr Desmaris and the Mississippi"high grading" claims

One of the flaws Dr Kroll pointed out with the Mississippi high grading theory is that often times, 1 1/2 year old bucks with inferior antlers are not genetically inferior but are merely the late born buck fawns from the previous year. IE: a buck fawn born in April of 06 will have a two month advantage over a fawn born in June of 06. By the time both bucks' antlers harden here in a few weeks, the two month older buck has benefited from a huge head start. The younger buck with the smaller rack could indeed have superior genes but we won't know that till he gets to around 4 1/2 which is the age where research has shown that late born bucks finally catch up.

Now take that little fact into consideration and rememvber that part of PA's planto harvest more does before the rut begins to make more sense. Less does available by rut time means a larger percentage gets bred in their first estrous cycle helpingto cause less late births.

Also, letting some bucks live through the concurrent gun season , provides breeding bucks for this years doe fawns who will attain the body necessary weight and come into estrous in mid December. Prior toAR's a doe coming into estrous after thebuck season was hard pressed to find a buck to breed her.

Earlier born fawns have better body weightsfor the coming winter and therefore a higher chance for survival. It's not just about antler size. It's about all around herd health.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Yes BT but don't you understnad if you take the OWDD times pie and divide it by the OWFDD that there may be a chance that the genetics of a buck may be diluted by then. :D:D:D

RE: PA antler restriction
 

That is a mighty fine theory , but the PA deer proved it did not apply to PA. Even though the herd has been reduced by over 30% and we have had ARs since 2002, Dr. Rosenberry stated there has been no significant change in the breeding period.



That isn't even close to being true. There were always enough buck carried over to breed the few numbers of fawns that came into estrus after the buck season. ARs protect the highest percentage of buck in areas like 2G and fawn breeding rates are still some of the worst in the state.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

BT,dominant breeding was supposed to occur and keep the younger bucks out of the picture as much as possible.This would allow the younger bucks to conserve more energy and go into winter in better shape.It sounds good on paper but the truth is,whitetail breeding is still a mystery.I've read studies where the biggest bucks never breed and otherstudies that show 1.5 year old bucks breed as many does as other age classes.Alt was full of crap,nodoubt about.Regardless,he never claimed the size of our 2.5 year old bucks would increase.When you testify for the USP,do yourself a favor and leave that part out.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Just to clarify DougE... When you address your postto BT Am I correct when I assume you mean Beenthere/Blueburd/deadeer/ddear? I certainly hope so[&:]