PA antler restriction
 

this is my last year being a youth hunter, and im not looking forward for the antler restriction. i just hunt in the rifle season and the deer are usually running and its so hard to count points. im in WMU 1A with the 4 point restriction. is there anybody else that doesnt like the antler restriction, my dad hates it and says it made him lose the interest in deer hunting.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

I like AR's. Why don't you take up archery? Think of it this way. When you do shoot a buck it will be a nice one. Try stopping the deer when they are running by you with a loud whistle or just yell,grunt ect. Sometimes this will stop the deer and you will have a chance to check it out. You are on the right track by not shooting at a running deer, thats a hard shot even for the seasoned hunter. Keep up the good work and hang in there it will happen! Be safe!

Hatchet Jack

RE: PA antler restriction
 

A lot of PA hunters are unhappy with antler restrictions. We were told that ARs would double the number of 8 pts and that we would likely have more and bigger buck than ever before. That didn't happen and many hunters are realizing ARs were just a carrot to get hunters to shoot more doe. In 2007 we harvested fewer 2.5+ buck than we did in 2002, so for many PA hunters all ARs produced were lower harvests.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

AR's are the best thing to happen to this state. Your best outlook is to not listen to the grumpy old rantings of bitter guys like your dad (and mine).
You will do much better to keep an open mind and postive attitude both in life and hunting.

I have no sympathy for those who quit doing something they supposedly loved, just because of a tighter restriction.

Good luck this season, stay positive, and have fun in the woods. THAT's the main goal of hunting.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

That is an interesting position when you consider the following facts.
1. Breeding rates have declined since ARS and HR were implemented.
2. Productivity decreased instead of increasing as predicted.
3. We are harvesting fewer 2.5+ buck than we did in 2002.
4. The number of licensed hunters has been steadily been decreasing since ARs were implemented

Now, would you care to post the reasons why you believe ARs were the best thing that happened to this state?

RE: PA antler restriction
 

I also like the AR's. We have much nicer Buck in our area since AR's. Most of our Buck we shoot now in our area are atleast 2.5.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Could you have shot 2.5 buck before ARs if you had just passed on 1.5 buck voluntarily?

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Same here.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

I wonder if you will be as cold hearted when you are 70 years old and have had one or two surgeries for cataracts , retinal tears or are suffering from glaucoma. How many hunters that are 70 + years old want to get a buck mounted ,no matter how big it might be? Priorities change with age and the PGC refuses to recognize that fact.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Yes, but the neighbors didn't care what they shot. Now they have to count points and more 1.5 year olds are making thru. There were many years before AR where the biggest deer we shot was a 1.5 year old 4 point or 6 point. Now we all shoot 8 and 10's. No complaints from me about AR's.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Because everyoneI know has taken the best bucks of their lives so far since AR's.
Licensed hunter rates were declining before Ar's, and has little to do with it. That is a country wide trend.
If the one day a year hunter quits over AR's, he wasn't much of a hunter to begin with.
Less deer means less deer. You must hunt more, or actually hunt to begin with.
And finally, who cares about your rabble Deaddeer, Blah, blah, blah..
Go shoot a button buck or three.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

I have to agree with you bluebird2, I really do not like the restrictions, and all my hunting party either. We have hunted PA for many years before them, and liked the idea of not having to look so hard for 3 pts. on one side where we hunt. It is very hard when they are running by you to count to see if it is legal. Even standing still I lost a chance at one last year. I have hunted my cousins farm for over 20 years. I am from central NY. When I go there I hunt for the meat, yes I know, just shoot the does. Many times I have had easier shots at the young bucks instead of a doe. The meat tastes so good I don't care I just want to take meat home.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

I don't live or hunt in PA, but I don't like antler restrictions and wouldn't want it to be implemented statewide in my state. Biologically AR's don't do anything other than possibly give hunters a buck that is a little older to shoot. Other than bragging material for hunters this does very little to help the herd. A bucks genetics are the same if he breeds at 1 1/2 or any other age, so letting them grow a little older does absolutely nothing to better the herd. These antler restrictions rules are set up solely to pacify those hunters who complain that there are not enough trophy sized deer around, and everything else the state might tell you is really a lot of BS. I will agree that the decline in hunter numbers is probably due more to other factors besides antler restriction rules, but I think states are mistaken in thinking that most people who buy hunting licenses are interested in trophy animals ONLY. I would say the majority who buy licenses are MORE interested in just enjoying the outdoors or want a chance to get a little meat for the freezer and getting a trophy is probably just icing if they are lucky enough to get one. The real trophy hunters who push for such antler restriction rules to try to better their chances of success are the ones in the minority, yet seem to be vocal enough to get states to give in to what they want.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

A R's are great.!!!I live in a special regulation area inS.E. Pa. When I started hunting down here in 2000 instead of upstate I saw tons of spikes and forks,some six points and a fewnice eights. I was disappointed when A R's started because they didn't apply to special regs areas. Now that they do andhave been in placeherefor a few years allI can say is WOW.In all of my years of hunting I've never been able to seefour orfive-- eight or ten points in a single day until recently.The biggest problem now is I knowafter I take a nicebuck and go back out for doeI'll probably see a bigger buck. It's happened a few times already.:(Life is good. Ken

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Implementing ARs in SRA counties was one of the biggest mistakes the BOC ever made. Instead of ARs they should have implemented an earn a buck program. It makes no sense to protect bucks in an area where the goal was to reduce the herd to less than 5 DPSM.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

The herd has been reduced and in a big way. The doe population is a mere fraction of what it was because of the changes in doe hunting regulations,at least in my area. I use to bust does like a covey of quail when leaving the woods in the evening [ hadn't learned the new area yet ] or when going for walks with the family. Not any more. I see more bucks than does on any given day while hunting. I use to wish them to go away when in my stand. Now it's"how about that, a doe". No sir , I think the South EastRegion is just about right. Ken

RE: PA antler restriction
 

You are certainly entitled to your opinion ,but the PGC disagrees. The goal is to continue to reduce the herd in 5D, 5C and 2B.
Can you explain how it is possible to have more buck than doe? What do you think the adult breeding B/D ratio is in your area?

RE: PA antler restriction
 

bb2- your BIOS a little vague.Where do you live / hunt ?

I hunt two farms and one public area. Observations are based on oneheck of a lot oftime in field and time on stand from the last week of October to the end January.
[ol][*]I said I see more bucks than does. Not necessarilythat there are.[*]I'm sure that if I hunted earlier in the season I'd see more does before the early muzzle loader seasonslaughterthat occursaround here.[*]I'm not sure what the breeding ratio is but by the time the rut rolls around it's a lot closer to even than it use to be.[/ol]

RE: PA antler restriction
 

............Seems to me that since AR started, a couple of years later the butcher shops and newspapers were full of larger racked bucks than ever before. That is not just conjecture on my part....That is the way it is. Don't tell me it's not working.
Oh... and by the way, bluebird2, if you personally are in your 70's, have failing health, cataracts, etc.,etc., you are entitled to voice your complaint. If, however, you ate not, please don't speak for those who are as all feeling the way you do. That's pure supposition on your part.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Naturally you will get bigger bucks shot if you don't allow the small ones to get shot. My point is how does this benefit the herd anymore than having hunters shoot ANY buck like before and also allow the shooting of does where needed? It absolutely makes NO difference. The BS from the game departments that AR's benefit the deer herd is simply nothing but BS! It was only implemented to make trophy hunters happier, everything else is nonsense made to look like there was some biological reasons behind it NOT to make the non-hunting public think that the states were managing deer only for trophy hunters. I am not condemning those who enjoy hunting for trophies here, but only seperating the truth from fiction.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

You should do a poll asking peoples' opinion on AR, then have them identify what type of hunter they consider themselves to be. I would assume that the majority of those strongly supporting AR will be the folks who place a high priority on hanging a big rack on the wall at the end of the season. I could be wrong, but i think that there would be such a correlation.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

I think you are absolutely right. If everyone was being truly honest, that's what a poll should reveal. I have nothing against those who want to hunt the big bucks, but I really detest being giving false facts that AR's are somehow better for a deer herd. Anyone who really stops to look at it all objectively should clearly see that as far as the deer are concerned there could be NO difference if any buck is allowed to be shot in comparison to AR restrictions given that an equal amount of does are also allowed to be shot under either scenario. The benefit might be to the hunter who values trophies, but there is surely NO benefit to the deer herd.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Kind of like the folks who talk about Quality Deer Management when they are clearly only interested in Quality Antler Management. No big deal to me if that is what they want to do on their own land, but it would be nice if they would just be honest about it.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

That is not the way to measure the success or failure of ARs. ARs were not implemented to produce more big buck ,at least according to the PGC. They were implemented to reduce late breeding, improve the breeding rates and improve productivity . Breeding rates and productivity has declined and the breeding period has remained unchanged, so ARs are not working as you claim they are.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

It is so painfully obvious that so many have never studied Biology in any form.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Well, this is a discussion board, so feel free to enlighten us.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

We ARE open to being dazzled by your brilliance on the subject if you would want to enlighten us?

RE: PA antler restriction
 

I live in WV, but I hunt in an AR area in PA. I stopped hunting in PA for a long time because the bucks did not have a chance, now they do.

I realize AR's are tough on the meat hunters. But for years you were only allowed ONE deer in PA for the entire year. Regardless of what weapon you used. Now you can get extra permits, and you can shoot does. So I really do not feel sorry for the meat hunter because he can easily score on a DOE!! Themeat hunters have more options now than what they have had for a long time. So I am not buying the "we can not get a deer" theory.

I have read where some people say the deer herds are down in their areas. I do not know if that is true or not. I do know that in the area I hunt the deer numbers are up, and the quality buck numbers are WAY WAY UP. Tom.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Well the AR rule also allowed shooting more does than ever before which couldn't possibly help deer numbers. I guess lots of hunters took this as killing as many does as you could without too much concern for future years. That was surely their own fault. You can't kill every doe you see and expect ample numbers in future years. But again the problem DID start with AR's when they started giving out doe permits like candy. The idea was to bring down the doe population so that you might have a more even buck/doe ratio. The facts are that you won't have ANY bucks OR does if there are NO does to produce them.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

That may be true in some areas , but in many areas of the state it isn't easy to harvest even one doe , no less multiple doe. It took 865,000 doe tags ,plus DMAP to harvest 214K doe , which was the lowest doe harvest since 1999. The statewide herd is down over 40% and in some areas it is down 75% from the 90's. When you consider the multiple deer kills in SRA counties, fewer than 200,000 hunters harvested a doe.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Truth be known,,,the bucks have no more chance of getting trophy sized now than they did before AR & HR,,,it's all a buncha BS to sell to the uninformed,,,sure,,you shoot more six points and 8 points now than ya did before,,but the racks are spindly,,,and the meat is tuffer en a pound of shoe leather,,,deer need food to grow to their potential,,,not just corn,,,oats,,,soybean,,but high protein feed not generally planted by the local farmer,,,and whats more,,,deer need good genetics!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Pa. is working with a shot out herd of deer,,,the genetics just are not there. I have land in Pa. that i hunt and yes,,,we have seen some nicer bucks,,,very few,,,but we have seen em,,,then hunting season comes along and guess what,,,killed,,first week of archery season,,"Gone with the wind". I dont claim to have the answers,,,but i claim to hunt land here in Va. with good genetics and it's a whole different deer season than you can ever believe. I know the AR guys are gonna wanna hang me fer this post,,but in time they will see,,,,well,,,maybe,,,AR's have been in place for what seems to be a lifetime,,,and guess what,,,nothing has changed,,(except for deer sightings are way down)

RE: PA antler restriction
 

WOW :eek:

RE: PA antler restriction
 

"killed the first week of archery season" ????? Wow. Sounds to me like someone beat you to the cookie jar... Not a bowhunter, I take it....

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Livbucks,

I know you are thinking exactly what I am. [&:]I don't know if it's funny or sad.

Last I checked, my drivers license said PA. The GPS says I'm in PA, but I must be in a different PA than the one these guys are coming from. [&:][&:]:eek:

RE: PA antler restriction
 

I agree . Allegheny Co. is an entirely different world than 2G. If the sustainable harvest rate in 2B was less than 3 DPSM as it is in 2G, a lot of the 2B guys would be singing a different tune.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

bb2,
I own a car. They let me drive outside of allegheny co. I don't consider ANYTHING I see or experience in 2B when I talk about hunting because I know its an apples to oranges debate. I visit and hunt enough areas of this state(Except the far eastern)that I feel my comments are valid.

Please stop whining about how bad 2G is. It's like those folkskept clinging to the 70's steelers up until they won again a few years ago. It really makes you look pathetic.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

I am not whining about 2G. I don't hunt there and i have no intention of hunting there. The PGC can reduce the herd to 5 DPSM and it wouldn't effect me one bit. But, it would effect thousands of my fellow hunters just like the previous herd reduction effected them and therefore I feel it is a reason to be concerned.

BTW, why would you do a lot of traveling outside of 2B to hunt when the harvest rate in 2B is 25 DPFSM compared to 3 DPFSM in 2G?

RE: PA antler restriction
 

We leave 2B every year to go to 2F for first day of buck.
Here is '06....50% success rate. Well, I'd say the trip was 100% successful. Then again, even if we see no deer, we call it a success.



These bucks were taken second day actually, after all the one day yawhoo's had packed it in and went home to complain there were no bucks.
How many aliases has bb2, dd, Bh, etc had anyway?

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Are you telling us you have a hard time killing a buck in 2B during archery ,so you travel to 2F to get your buck during the concurrent season?

BTW, if you believe that not seeing deer is a successful hunt , you have a unique definition of success.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Ryan, We've both been here, well Bob (BTB)too, for a long time, under our original handles, debating the same things over and over. I don't know about you, but I don't have the energy for it anymore. I lost my desire to bang my head on brick walls lately. ;)
You have a great, safe year Bud!
Greg