RE: PA antler restriction
 

But you were logged in here all day long, weren't you?

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Funny thing is everytime I logged in , you were logged in , because neither one of us log out. Try again!!!

RE: PA antler restriction
 

info is nice to read,i learned a lot reading your posts.

AR is great thing i feel,bucks i am seeing do have nice big horns.

most are 2 year old deer.

if the kids exemption was stopped,boy, that would be great thing too.

right now from what i am seeing, the AR is not working do to the 12/16 year olds and ILLEGAL brown its down with kids along tag thing going on.

for ar to work, the above must stop..........

make it 3 points to side in WMU2G for all of us.

:eek:

RE: PA antler restriction
 

The kids are not causing any problems Sproul.
I don't agree with you that kids should be bound by AR.
The people using kid's tags on sub-AR deer are criminals.
We will always have criminals, and we cannot punish kids because of it.
We can't manage hunting based on criminal elements.

Harsher penalties for violations is a better way.
Purposely shooting an illegal animal-lose a finger.
Sounds good to me.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

While you may have a problem with adults shooting bucks for kids, IMHO that is not the major problem with ARs in 2G. In 2006 less than 10% of hunters were junior hunters and most of the junior hunters only get to hunt the first day and a Sat. or two,so they have limited opportunity to harvest a buck and if they do there is a good chance it will be an AR legal buck since around 60% of the preseason buck are AR legal.

A much bigger problem in 2G is that there are ,on average, less than 2 AR legal buck/SM. So if kids couldn't harvest non-AR legal buck, how many more buck/SM would it add to the 2.5+ harvest? IMHO it would not be enough to be noticed by the average hunter.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

rybo said it best kid

RE: PA antler restriction
 

What did he say? I can't seem to find anything noteworthy.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

I noticed a trend through out this post that fewer 2-1/2 year old + bucks are being harvested. Heres a little food for thought on that subject. Could it be that since only 3pts or 4pts or better whatever your case may be, means that the 1-1/2 year olds are sporting better antlers at younger ages(making what use to bea spike or fork hornin the past ashootable buck by most PA hunters, thus making the 1-1/2 harvest larger than before and the older smarter deer smaller) due to the better genes being passed along buy there fathers who grew to a better age. As a 2-1/2 + old deer he has now lived through and learned a thing or two about hunting season that the 1-1/2 has not. Lets not blame the AR for an ever increasing lazier and passive weekend hunters who if they can't shoot a deer from the window of there vehicle with a super magnum and star gazing scope. Would rather just stop hunting all together and blame it on anyone or anything else, rather than get out in the woods and learn a little more about there quarry.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

While that is an interesting theory , I think the answer is fairly simple. The 2.5+ buck harvest has only decreased by 22%, while the total buck harvest has decreased by 46%. So the decrease in the 2.5+ buck harvest was what was to be expected due to at least a 40% decrease in the herd.
Since ARs were implement the 1.5 buck harvest has decreased from 113K in 2002 to only 61K in 2007. The increased antlerless harvests and resulting herd reduction has resulted in a lot fewer BB and fewer 1.5 buck.


I have no idea why you would make that claim when we are still harvesting 80% of our legal buck , just like before ARs were implemented.And BTW, those lazy hunters were very effective at reducing the herd by over 40% in just 6 years. Do you know of hunters in any other northeastern state that were as effective in controlling their herd.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

bluebird I think you missed my point. I'm in complete agreement with you on the deer kill numbers. In fact I'll go so far as to say that I think the hunting is better than ever. I was aiming at the hunters complaining that there not seeing enough or better horn quality deer as they seem to think they where seeing OH so many years ago. The lack of deer kill is a result of many factors. the least of wich unfortunatly is the lack of new/younger hunters who are dedicated or intrested enough in deer hunting to invest more time/energy in the sport. I think the old addage 10% of the hunters take 90% of the deer or in this case Quality deer. I hope that cleared things up a bit.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

You explained your position , but it didn't help, I assure you.;)

RE: PA antler restriction
 

They didn't just "seem to think" they were seeing more and better quality buck and it wasn't so long ago. In 2000 Elk Co. had 22 DPSM and now it has 8-9 DPSM. the buck harvest in Elk dropped from 2,969 buck in 2000 to 1,920 in 2003 and 42% of the bucks harvested in Elk were 2.5+ buck. So, the hunters that hunt what was once the premier deer hunting area of the state , are now hunting the least productive area of the state,with fewer 2.5+ buck and have valid reasons to complain.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

have hunted the northcentral counties of PA. since 1980 and it is a known fact that that part of the states deer herd has seen a drop in numbers since the mid to late 80's. not just since 2000. I see by looking over most of your post you seem to have some sort of a vendetta against the PGC. so I won't be wasting my time descussing sound deer management practises with you anymore.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Wise choice dude. :)

RE: PA antler restriction
 

It's not that I have a vendetta against the PGC. It is simply that you want to discuss deer management based on your opinions rather than on the facts. I have the facts to support my positions ,but none of those that support the PGC can produce the facts to show that the plan has improved herd health , productivity or the rack sizes of 2.5+ buck.

BTW, over the past few years I have had very good experiences working with deputy WCO's. On two occasions I called the PGC regarding crippled non-AR legal buck and in both cases the response time was excellent and the WCO was friendly ,but very professional. I also reported illegal activities on an adjoining property and the WCO followed up my lead ad issued the appropriate citations. Another time I called about a crippled buck that was hit by a car and no WCO was available ,so a State Trooper responded and handled the situation in a friendly but professional manner.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

drop in deer numbers in 80s was do to locals not being able to stop doe killing.

we used to only see a few hunters and most were local.
then in came the out of area hunters and,you right, numbers went down.

i can remember we left 19 or so deer go in area i hunted for 40 years or so.

we always did.

in came crew from out of area and shot a lot of those doe,then they left.

after that, in 80s,the doe never could get a real start back to the numbers they were.

now, you have all these areas or counties in WMU2G.

i get hunters from ,centre, potter, lycoming,clinton,cameron hunting in say,CLINTON COUNTY.

we used to be able to keep the doe tags for locals in clinton county.

locals WOULD NOT SHOOT OFF THE HERD.

thats why you have less deer or no deer,its not habitat even tho i agree its not best for large herd of deer,its OVERHARVEST OF DOE/FAWNS and all new hunters that DONT CARE IF 1 LIVING DEER IS LEFT.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Whether for or against antler restrictions, this cannot be disputed.. Every successful QDM program does use some form of antler restriction. However places in the midwest have better soil for growing higher protein forage for deer to consume. Many of those lands are privately owned and managed- minerals supplied, food plots planted, timbering for habitat "not just profit," deer provided space as a sanctuary and not pressured like on public lands.Instead of sitting in an office and"guesstimating" harvest reports, these Quality Deer Managers not onlyphysically observethe deer population but most have namedthe larger buck and can tell what deer is what before shooting. The PAGC has tried to do something good but they won't provide the deer with enough nutritious food sources to aid those "immature" 2 1/2 year old deer with what is needed to grow impressive racks. This is why Pa is ranked no. 1 in the nation for deer/vehicle collisions. The deer aren't provided with enough palatable nutrition in the woods so they eat along the road. Deer apparently prefer the habitat PennDOT provides over what the PAGC provides. Also by killing off more button bucks than older does during this brown it's down deer season we will not see a larger number of buck. There should be a penalty for killing button bucks. If not it defeats the purpose of the antler restriction. (Here's an idea) do what always worked -Archery, Rifle and then 3 days of doe but keep the antler restriction.. Not only will we have more buck but the woods will be safer and less deer will be crippled by those who shoot at running deer that can't be identified as buck or doe at 70yds. If you want Big Buck you need to do some work, don't expect the PAGC to do it for you. Get out in the woods supply deer with minerals like phosphate early in the spring and throughout the summer. If possible plant food plots with high protein foods like soybeans. And finally, let the young buck go so they can grow. Stop going into the area you plan to hunt a month before season and limit activity 3 months before season. Deer will pattern you faster than you will them.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

4evrhtnAmazing what common sense brings 38 pages later. I can't beleive you guys arestill arguing this out.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

The vast majority of our bucks are not harvested from lands controlled by the PGC and the vast majority of the roadkills do not occur in the heavily forested areas of the state. WMU 2G has the lowest buck harvest rate in the state even though it is one of the largest WMU's and is 90% forested. The deer in most of the state have nutrition that is more than adequate to produce large racks. The major factor that limits the development of trophy buck is 950,000 hunters that prevent the vast majority of bucks from reaching 4.5 years.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Been gone for almost a week and nothing has changed. It's kind of like walking by the TV when the wife has a soap opera on and then walking by a week later and the same scene is still playing out!!

Greg, I love your idea for a "buckswe passed thread"!!

BTW Bluebird, I had left my copy of Dr Kroll article at my camp and so I couldnt challenge your quotes from the article. Well, I've got it here now and am ready to expose your spins, twists and lies.EVERY quote you listed from the article was presented out of context or prefaced by a statement by you that madethe post a lie.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Anytime you think you are up to defending that claim , please feel free to put those quotes in their proper context . Then everyone will see I did not misrepresent what Dr. Kroll said in the article.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

What is taking you so long? I thought you had documented all of my lies and just couldn't wait to reply?

RE: PA antler restriction
 

You're making it too easy.... like shooting a 1.5 year old buck in the rut!!:D

OK here we go for starters. You said....

and then you said.....

and then you said.....

These are indeed quotes from Dr Krolls articles but they are not his reasons for supporting AR as you cleverly claimed. The intro to thiose lines was " Why should we protect yearling bucks? To answer that question, three important facts must be considered"

His reasons folow the introduction. You oversimplified and claimed the above statements to be his reasons for supporting the protection of yearling bucks. They were simply some lead in information.

His first actual reason is to promote a natural deer herd with a natural buck doe ratio
Another reason Dr Kroll cites is that studies have shown that the non hunting population is only liley to support hunting if hunting is an important component in healthy deer management. AR with a proper doe harvest promotes that "natural herd"


Nothing but point out that Dr Demariis assumed that spike bucks are genetically inferior and then go on to point out the evidence that genetic tendencies cant be determined by antler size of yearing bucks.

Nothing but point out that the Mississsippi study was done in an area wher the doe harvest was 2.3 does per thousand acres or to put it another way, a doe harvest of 1.5 per square mile

He did, as pointed out here before, say that a spread limit was more likely to be successful over a point requirement.


If you think lie is too harsh a word, too bad!!! You misrepresented the quotes. period.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

I, unlike you, have a life and don't sit on the computer all the time.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

But you forget that Kroll also stated that a natural B/D ratio was 1:2 ,which is what we had in PA before ARs. Furthermore, nothing Kroll stated indicated ARs would result in a healthier herd.
But, Dr. Demarais did not say or assume spikes were inferior ,so was Kroll lying about Dr. Demarais position?

RE: PA antler restriction
 

You ducked my point. You misrepresented the quote. Plain and simple. Thats called a lie.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

I have no idea what you are talking about. Try again or admit you are wrong, or just stop trying to defend the indefensible.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

There! You went and posted something truthful. Now doesn't that feel good?

RE: PA antler restriction
 

The sad part is you have no idea what you are talking about, so those who want to discuss the issues based on scientific fact, find it hard to communicate with those that can't express their ideas in a rational manner.

Kroll's reasons for ARs aren't even close to the reasons Alt gave for implementing ARs. So, is Kroll right or was Alt right or were theyboth blowing smoke?

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Here is what Kroll actually said about spread restrictions.
Notice that he says nothing about improved breeding rates, improved productivity or improved herd health. In PA we had an adult B/D breeding ratio of 1:2 before ARs and we had higher breeding rates and productivity than we have now with ARs.

So can anyone tell us how a more natural condition helps the herd or improves hunting.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

I said what I had to say in regard to this AR issue. I joined a club in Jackson, Ohio this past year and have seen for myself the difference in the quality of mature buck in OH compared to PA. I am counting down the days till Ohio's archery season. As far as Pa, I am only interested in seeing my girlfriend and her boy shoot some deer. I have long ago stopped expecting the PAGC to do what common sense would dictate. I spend thousands of $ each yeardoing my homework prior to the hunting season to increase the quality of the deer "herd" I plan to hunt. If I do not harvest a mature buck by season's end I don't complain, rather just continue with planting food plots and doing the regular off-season work. As I see it, those who gripe about what is and do nothing to increase their odds, expecting the PAGC to do everything for them are lazy and undeserving of regularly harvesting mature buck. If they spend more time in the woods and less on the computer in their mom's basement they might stand a greater chance of seeing the benefits of sound management practices.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

i have friends that go to ohio to hunt deer.

they get their deer BUT they are on privateland.

they say publicland is not so good.

we asked DCNR if we could plant our own DEER PLOTS, they said NO.

i have plots and feed on my privateland but i dont hunt deer there because i like STATEFORESTLAND, i grew up there and i have memories.

most of my deer have been shot off do to ROAD HUNTERS, TRESSPASSERS,POACHERS, hunters with lots of dmap/doe tagstags to fill.

i had about 20 deer3 years ago and i am down to about 5
now.
we dont even have game warden here in clinton county west now.soooooooooo,its BROWN ITS DOWN WITHOUT GAME WARDEN.......:eek:

RE: PA antler restriction
 

I have no problem with hunters that spend thousands of dollars increasing the quality of deer on their own land or leased land. But, you can't compare what you are doing to the thousands of hunters that that hunt SGLs or SFLs or private property where they have no control .


PA hunters harvested 80% of all AR legal buck. They are not sitting in their Mom's basement on the computer as you so arrogantly proclaim. the reason ARs were implemented is because PA hunters were to efficient at harvesting buck and not because they were sitting in Mom's basement on the computer.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

he is right. When I see a buck, it is generally bigger, however it is not rare to go all day and never see a buck, occasionally not a doe either.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

The land I hunt in Ohio is leased and it is surrounded by state land. There have been problems with poaching in that area as well.Six years ago an antler restriction and proper doe harvest, food plots, minerals, etc. was implementedthe land now has numerous bucks scoring over the 130 class requirement. In fact, one buck which is now 6 years old is 180 class and will be in the record books this year if harvested. When it comes to hunting public lands it is rare to find hunters willing to pass up a 6 pointer in order for it to become a trophy buck. I passed upthree 6 pointers andan 8 pointer and spent between 195 and 203 hours in the woods before shooting a 120 class buck. Pa's system is far from being good but it is what it is and unless you are willing to invest the time ormoney to lease land or join private clubs or go to Illinois, Kansas or Iowa your chances of harvesting a quality buck are low. However, my family owns a taxidermy business and the bucks coming into the shop the pastfew years are without a question bigger than they were 15 years ago. Maybe I enjoy hunting for reasons different from most. I enjoy spending time in the woods. It isn't about the kill, it's about having opportunities of passing up smaller buck in order to take a shot at larger buck. If I want meat I go to the store, but I rarely find that necessary. I believe this, if we the hunters are paying the game commision's wages then we the hunters should be able to elect the officials to their positions. Only then will we have people who have the same concernsin the positions to make a difference. The PAGC seems to be more concerned with managing timber than managing wildlife. Anyone who disagrees is more than welcome to come to where I live and I will prove my point. I want to know exactlywhat game animal the game commission has in mind that the forested habitat they provide is 60 year old pine timber with no undergrowth and the ability to see 100 yds in any direction. Squirrels, chipmunks, woodpeckers...? none of which I spend $55 a year to hunt.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

I am curious to what source it was where you found this 80% figure. I myself personally passed up 80% of the "legal" buck I have seen. And I know for a fact only one of those buck were harvested by season's end. Also, do you archery hunt or rifle hunt or both? How many days last year did you hunt? Did you harvest a deer? If so, what was it? I can only assume that you are aware thatmost "mature" buck go nocturnal before the rifle season even opens.
So this 80% figure cannot possibly be accurate. This means all but 20% of the buck left are yearlings, and what percent of that 20% survived road accidents, disease, injuries, etc.? Alot of what you have posted seems to have come from literature other's have written.
I am anything but a PA Game Commission sympathizer. But this idea of killing everything with antlers no matter how small is in your mind a good alternative to what we currently have is asinine. I remember huntingat 12years old in 1990, before the antler restriction. Deer had trails run into the dirt that you couldn't overlook if you tried. There were days you would see 20 deer traveling in a group. Now, you're lucky if you find 3 good runs on a mountain.
Do you really feel the need to kill off what deer are left by eliminating the restriction? You argue there is no benefit to having the restriction. What benefit is there to not having one? More license sales? More hunters? You being able to shoot a young dumber deer? If this is truly how you feel you should apply for a job in the PAGC. It seems you have more in common than you wish to admit.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Oh Boy....

RE: PA antler restriction
 

The antlered buck survey showed only 20% of the 2.5+ buck survived hunting season.

I hunted both archery and rifle and I didn't keep track of the number of days I hunted during archery. I hunted 9 days during rifle and I didn't have a shot in either season.
Actually, ARs protect around 50% of the 1.5 buck and at least 20% of the 2.5+ buck. You are correct that the data I post is from the PGC.

You may think the 3" spike rule was asinine, but we had it for over 50 years and there was no negative effect on the gene pool or the health of the herd. But now that we have ARs, breeding rates decreased, productivity decreased, the buck harvest has been reduced by 47%, adult,Jr. and non-resident license sales are decreasing at an alarming rate and the PGC has lost a lot of it's credibility.

Here is a bit of information you might find interesting. In 2001 ,before ARs were implement 42% of the bucks harvested in Elk Co. were 2.5+ buck, but no one bragging about all the big buck harvested. Can you explain why ?

RE: PA antler restriction
 

HAHA

RE: PA antler restriction
 

That is the typical response from someone that can't defend their position with facts. When you learn enough about deer management in PA to have a rational discussion of the facts, you can tell us why we needed ARs in PA.