RE: PA antler restriction
 

I have no need to manipulate the PGC data, because their raw data shows that productivity has decreased instead of increasing along with breeding rates and the breeding period hasn't changed. Therefore ARs have failed to produce the intended results.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Surprise surprise surprise!

You don't give credibility to QDMA

You don't give credibility to Dr Kroll, Dr Samuel, Dr Alt, Dr Rosenberry

You admitted to having no training in wildlife biology but of course, you know best how our deer should be managed.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Wrong again! Dr Rosenberry is the exception to the rule. When I ask him why 2F was being managed at 22 PS DPSM while 2G was being managed at 12 PS DPSM. he was honest enough to say he didn't know . While Alt was claiming the B/D ratio was skewed , Dr. R . was saying there were enough buck to breed the doe within a reasonable time period. Dr. R. said we had high breeding rates before ARs and doesn't try to explain why breeding rates and productivity decreased with HR and ARs.

Dr. Alt was shill for the DCNR and the timber industry and Dr. Kroll is a shill for QDM.

BTW,did you notice the PGC is no longer asking hunters to pass on BB?

RE: PA antler restriction
 

im not against the WMUs, what i dont like is the bow hunters get more hunting time in Pa. six to eight weeks while the rifle hunter gets 2 weeks. out of those two weeks most of us may get to hunt a couple of days. bow hunters have the time to be choosy on the bucks they shoot. why not make it possible for all hunters to have the same amount of time to hunt. the PGC should allow rifle hunters the opportunity to hunt doe after Xmas along with the muzzleloaders. this would help in lowering the doe population where its needed. lets make hunting time equal for all hunters.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

In WMU 2B,5C and 5D you can hunt antlerless deer from Dec. 1 to Jan .24 , but they still have a problem controlling the herd due to limited hunter access.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Lets look at it another way. Archery hunters number about one third of PA's total hunter numbers but they harvest only about 15-18% of the deer. You are correct that we get more time to hunt deer but due to the challenges of hunting with a bow, archers only take less than a fair share of the deer taken. If you want fairness and equality maybe we should lengthen the archery seasons until archers harvest a percentage of the deer equal to their numbers. Or maybe the rifle season should be shortened till the harvest ratio is more "fair"

I would never work to shorten the gun season but gun hunters who are jealous of thelength of the archery seasons are way off base.

I'll also be glad to make the the offer to any gun hunter who wants to get more time in the woods by getting started in archery. I'll be glad to help you pick a good bow, get it tuned up and sighted in and help get you on your way

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Well, I have a Browning x-cellerator compound in excellent condition for sale.
Laminated wood riser, glass recurve style limbs.
It is LEFT handed, set at 60 lbs, with adjustable draw of I believe 27-32 inches. Comes with a hard sided case, quiver, extra strings a sight and 4 Beman carbon arrows. I have an asking price of $175. I can email pictures.
This would be great for anyone that is LEFT handed and is looking to get into archery for a song. It is my Dad's bow and he killed 7 bucks with it before upgrading. I can email pics of the bucks too:D!!!
Here is your chance, and away you go into bowhunting!

RE: PA antler restriction
 

I think we get pleanty of time w/ gun. 2 weeks in centerfire, 1 week inline ML (although it is doe only) hopefully bucks in the future, and flinters only Dec. 26-Jan. 10, (which I'm sure they open to Inlines in the future ) as it is a new $$ for the PGC.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

I agree BH1. With the exception of SRA's, it seems that the seasons are adequate in length to manage the deer effectively while giving fair and generous hunting opportunities to all. I personally kind of like the experiment they're doing this year in 2D, 2G etc with a week of buck only but only time will tell if it's a good idea.

SRA's remain a problem because even with the long seasons, much of the deer habitat is unavailable to hunters so we have deer sanctuaries next to "obliteration zones" High hunting pressure in the areas accesable to hunters pushes the deer onto the posted or unaccessable ground till the seasonis over then some of the deer work their way back in. It's a less than perfect system but no easy answer seems to be out there.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

[quote]ORIGINAL: BTBowhunter

QDMA studies are now showing approximately 80% of PA hunters surveyed favor AR's where close to 80% were against them or were at least skeptical before they were instituted.

There are still flaw and there are still regions where the deer numbers and forest health are terrible. Cameron County is right up among the worst if not THE worst. Perhaps you need to adapt and look for a new hunting area within PA.[hr][ You say NY is so much better, why even spend the $$ for gas the nonresident license if it's so much better at home?]


Because I'm a hunting fool and I like hunting all day without seeing Posted signs and other hunters!

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Can you tell us where you got the 15-18% figure . The data I have shows that in 2007 archers harvested 19% of the total harvest. Furthermore, you conveniently left out the fact that archers harvested harvest 25% of the buck harvest, because it didn't fit your agenda. What is even more revealing is that in 2B and 5C archers harvested more buck than were harvested during the concurrent season.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

I don't believe the SR areas are relevant. The harvest in those areas comes from safety zones where agun hunter would not be permitted to hunt anyway. That negates it from the discussion.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

WMU 5C is not an SRA , although Chester and Bucks are SRA counties.
And you have absolutely nothing to support you claim that most of the archery harvest comes from safety zones. You just keep making up stories to support your agenda.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Thanks Greg. Couldn't have said it any better myself.

As for Deaddeers 19% figure, I chose to take the harvests over the last several years. not the one year when the gun opener had the worst hunting weather we had in decadesbut, OK, lets use his 19% number.It took him the best part of a day to find this one little "fact"so he could discredit my post so lets let him use it.It doesn't change the theme of my post one little bit

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Nope nothing but good old common sense that would simply conclude that urban WMU's will have areas where archery is the only viable method of hunting

How about that Greg! now we gotta have proof to back up common sense so that those without it will believe us

RE: PA antler restriction
 

It did in fact pour buckets the first two days, and even on one Saturday I believe, last season.
Not that Beenthere would know. He probably was logged on here the whole time, wondering where you were.;)

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Wrong again ! I was out all day except for a lunch break and I didn't even get wet. It was an interesting day watching the birds at the feeder but the only deer I say was a y buck.

BT and others are concerned abott the PGC shortening the archery season if X-bows are permitted ,but it didn't happen in 5C and 2B where archers harvest 50% of the buck harvest before the rut,while passing on more than twice as many antlerless.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

It did where I was.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

What did it do where you were?

RE: PA antler restriction
 

You may want to rewrite your post. If you were out hunting all day and watching a feeder you might just run into a problem with the law

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Sitting on your back porch negates your experience from the discussion.
We all know what you are cleverly alluding to.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

When deer learn to fly I'll worry about being cited for baiting. Until then watching the birds adds a lot of pleasure to my days in the woods.

It rained heavy at times where I was hunting but they do make rain gear and umbrellas.

BTW 5 C is 44% forested and 2B is 57% forested ,so to claim most deer are harvested in safety zones during archery is ridiculous.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

.

Wow.... scattered in amongst all those trees, are thousands upon thousands of houses. Come here when the leaves fall and you will see them.
There are many vacant tracts of land where I hunt, but only in select areas can you legally fire a gun. With bows though, we cover it all.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Try again. Only 20% of 2B is rated as developed. Just because you choose to hunt near houses doesn't mean the majority of archers choose to hunt there.

Personally , I would have a hard time enjoying a hunt listening to kids playing ,lawn mowers and stereos.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Define developed. There are loads of forested areas but not very many places where the orange army can go and spread out.
You start putting a 150 yard.... (personally,I like more than that when gun hunting, just so I don't have any confrontations with homeowners, but that's just me) ....circle around every house and see how the available lands shrink.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Developed lands are those with houses , garages, shopping centers and industry.

FYI,77% of 2B is forested or farmland.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Forested can mean anything. There are large areas with houses interspersed within the forested areas. Now put a circle around each one. Then take the forested areas that prohibit gun hunting. The forested areas get whittled away.
Bowhunters get much more access anyway you look at it.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

That is true only in your little world where you report rumors as fact and make up your own definition of what forested means. The PGC uses the USFS surveys and the USFS has defined criteria that describes what is considered to be forested and what is developed. Now if you think you know more than the USFS and the PGC, why don't you tell everyone how much of 2B is forested, how much is developed and what percentage of 2B is safety zones.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

When one has no clue about a subject it's usually best to keep silent. You obviously have no clue about the makeup of area 2B. You might wantto stop before you embarass yourself further, if thats possible

RE: PA antler restriction
 

The data I posted was provided by WCO Dick Bodenhorn. Would you like to call him a liar just like you routinely call me a liar? PGC supporters often have trouble with dealing with reality because their preconceived perceptions are contradicted by the facts. And the facts are that archers do very little to help control the herd while at the same time they cherry pick the bucks and complain about the introduction of X-bows.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

What does this have to do with PA Antler restrictions? Maybe it's just me....:eek:

RE: PA antler restriction
 

I didn't challenge the percentage of 2B that has trees but you have no basis for inferring howmuch of that forested areamay or may not fall within the safety zone rules. It's simply a fact of life in 2B that archery hunting is allowed or welcomed on a huge number of properties where gun hunting is simply not allowed. Usually thats simply the choice of the private property owners and the vast majority of 2B isprivate property.
It's also important to note that much of the pulic property in 2B where hunting is allowed is restricted to bowhunting only by the municpality that owns it.

You have not presented any data that shows how much of 2B falls into a safety zone that would prove Gregs statement wrong. We will waitfor youto find thatdocumentation and get back to us

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Wrong again. I presented the data that showed only 20% of 2b was developed while 57% was forested. Based on the USFS criteria forested land does not include residences that require a safety zone..

Also, would you care to explain why if firearms hunters have less access than archers, why those hunters harvested 8,900 antlerless in 2 weeks while it took 12 weeks for archers to harvest only 5,418 antlerless?

RE: PA antler restriction
 

The USFS does not administer or enforce safety zones. Please show us where, as you claim,the USFS uses that in their criteria

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Can you provide a source for the USFS caring diddley about safety zones?

RE: PA antler restriction
 

You owe me a Coke, Bob. :D

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Yet another post demonstrating your ignorance of area 2B. The firearms season totals 8 weeks+ in area 2B

RE: PA antler restriction
 

I'll be happy to buy you a coke anytime but after these past few days, maybe it's time for a beer or three;)

RE: PA antler restriction
 

I didn't claim that the USFS enforced safety zones or even cared about safety zones.But, they definitely determine if a section of woods is a developed subdivision or a contiguous stand of forest.

BTW,when did they reduce the safety zone reg. to 50 yds. for archery/

RE: PA antler restriction
 

What you did was quote a USFS stat to try and dipute Gregs accurate observation that much of 2B is safety zone and accessable to archers but not gun hunters

The safety zone for archery was changed several years ago. At least 5 or 6.

Oh and 2B currently has 8+ weeks of gun hunting for antlerless deer, 9+ if you count early muzzy season, not the two weeks as you stated in your last attempted distortion