RE: PA antler restriction
 

See above.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Believe me blueboyd, I never say something I know to be untrue. That is not my intention EVER.
[/quot

But you are responsible for what you posted and if you posted a rumor or a lie you are equally responsible. I have heard many stories and rumors but I never post them as facts.

The regulations have not changed as you claim. It has been illegal to sell wildlife or parts of wildlife as long as i can remember, with the exception of hides. In the future just try to stick to the facts and avoid making p stories to support your agenda.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Actually, you are quite wrong again. You post statements that you represent as absolute, and yet they are not. Here is an excerpt that I will share. You can google it if you like, but I'm not doing your agenda's homework.....

[align=center][/align]

Quote:

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Approximately half the deer were donated to the ranch from the Pennsylvania Dept. of Game and Fish as orphans. A few original ones were purchased and the remainder were born here. One was even donated when he became to big to keep as a pet.

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[align=center]So as you can see, Bob was spot on yet again.[/align]

RE: PA antler restriction
 

He is a persistent pest isn't he?

I remeber a saying from an old timer that applies to our friend: He's kinda like that booger you cant flick away eh Greg?;)

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Well, I gotta give him credit. He is dedicated to his agenda.
I have to wonder what drives him to spend so much effort to this agenda of his. How many reincarnations has he gone through, and hours spent in this quest? Makes a guy wonder.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

I said nothing about deer being donated to a ranch and since we don't have many ranches in PA, I have no idea what point you are trying to make. You ad BT posted false and misleading info and now you are trying to weasel out of your mistake. When you are wrong it is much better to admit it and move on, instead of digging a deeper hole that you will have to crawl out of later.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Look in the mirror. You commit acts of omission on a continual basis, intentionally, to advance your agenda. Never have we heard you admit it, even when it is blatantly obvious you do it on purpose.
If I or BT say something that is in error, believe me it is unintentional.
We know how you like to pick statements apart to find your angle.
You wage a war of propaganda nonstop here, and gosh knows where else.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

There was nothing false and misleading about it. There were many Goliath stories flying around and you have nothing to disprove what Greg wrote or my confirmation that I read a similar account.
You are becoming more and more delusional and desperate. It's a common tactic when caught in the lie to change the subject. You once again posted a statement implying that anlerless tag alllocations would be skewed if the BB harvest dropped when you know full well that the PGC monitors the percentage of BB's as it relates toantlerless harvest. Leaving out an important component of the calculations, you then did your own to produce the result you wanted.

Figures dont lie but liars can figure. You are that liar Bluebird.

Heck, you've done it so often you even had to lie about your identity just to get back on here! That alone says volumes about your propensity to LIE to further your agenda!

RE: PA antler restriction
 

BTBOW:
nice bucks for sure! My only question to you is ,,,is the land you hunt private or posted and how many other hunters are using the same area/areas,,,do the deer rely on available nutrients in the area or are you supplementing them in other ways. I ask these questions for knowledge only,,not to take away from your accomplishments.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

because im too lazy to google search,,,,was the goilath buck an orphaned fawn or was he born on the farm sired from one of the other monsters the guy was raising??

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Of course what Livbucks posted was false and misleading. Just because he thought it might be true doesn't make it factual.

Here is what I posted about the BB issue,

"That means every year we need to harvest around 215K antlerless deer. Since on average, the antlerless harvest includes 44% fawns that means that means we will be harvesting 94,600 fawns and approx. half will be BB."

Please note that i included the fact that 44% of the antlerless deer harvested are fawns and that approx. half would be BB. So contrary to your claims I included the facts the PGC uses to determine the BB harvested and I made no false claims about how the PGC would adjust antlerless allocations. My original post was based on the premise that hunters would pass on BB and harvest a mature doe instead. Then you raised the issue of adjusting doe tag allocations the following year.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Way back, the story was that he was an orphaned fawn. I heard it so many times and so did many people that I know. It became common knowledge to many people. Now, was the story changed along the line? Did somebody alter the reality to get everyone's interest? Was he taken from the wild illegally and then the history now re-written because of legal issues? I don't know the reasoning. What I do know from recent research is that there is a documented genetic lineage STARTING with Goliath, but I can find no reference to any lineage PRIOR to Goliath. You would think that if there was breeding going on that was producing such an incredible specimen, that the sire of Goliath would be documented as well, or siblings of Goliath would have had offspring that were documented. Only the things that are written can be researched, word of mouth, rumor, the spoken word, cannot. I have been checking and am puzzled by the very limited info that is on the net about this incredible whitetail. You would think, with all the fame and fortune that giant antlers attract, that there would be more to find. The whole story seems clouded in mystery now.
Had the deer not been stolen from it's owner, there would be even less to find. That seems funny in this day of fascination with big bucks.
I related something from my memory. Something that I don't walk around thinking of as a rule, relating to a topic being discussed. Actually it was a tad off topic, but that is how conversations go on here.
If I was incorrect then so be it, so what. I have not been able to substantiate DeadDeer's claim that I was, other than a single quote that the deer was bought from some unnamed other party. I surely did not fabricate anything, but related what I had heard, and what obviously many other's heard then at the time. Big Deal.
I'm sure that somewhere, there is a person that can set the record straight. I welcome it.
Pure semantics going on here, over something the is actually irrelevant to the agenda. The man of many handles has been trying for several years, YES YEARS, to discredit me and others. If he proves me wrong on this then great, he can bask in the glow of victory. Whatever.
You can bet I'm not so worried about it that I change my handle.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

First of all, thanks!. All those were taken on private land in 2B and within the same square mile. All the land I hunt in that area is now posted but two of those bucks were taken on land that was unposted at the time. All four had home territory that included private but unposted ground that gets hunted regularly. Many of my sightings were from the side of the area that is open to the public. The droptine buck was killed on halloween and had been hit above the spine by a broadhead and was healing over. The 3.5 was taken in the second week of gun season with a crossbow and he had a superficial slug woundthrough his front leg under the chest that was beginning to heal.The 5.5was taken Jan 12 and although I saw him from the vehicle and before the season, I hunted him hard and I never saw him before Christmas when actually hunting for him.In saw him regularly, and eventually killed himin the late archery season.The other 2.5 was shot on on Oct 27 I had seen him three times on my property and twice on the public side before that. I even showed him to buddie from the truck on the public side.

I am positively sure I watched three of the 4 grow up and feel very strongly that I passed the 2.5 that has the mule deer looking horns several times the year before. My observations are based on physical characteristics, behavior patterns and even posture and attitude of the deer as I hunted them over the years. No, I cant say for absolute sure that they were indeed the same deer but I'd still bet the farm on it!

Hunting pressure on the adjacent properties over the years has been very heavy at times but has gotten lighter the last few years.

The area is on the fringe of suburbia with a very large tract of timber adjacent. No agriculture but a very good and large oak forest and of course the gardens and shrubs. No supplemental feeding or food plots. I did place minerals (calcium and phosphorus ) out in February several places within their core area but away from my stands for a couple of years and the biggest one was taken one of those years but I that was a few years ago.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

I find it hilarious that the one accusing you and I of being liars for relaying a story as told to us as well as to many othersis the very guy who has had no less than 4 screen names here and even came back under his wifes name once to skirt permanent bans here that were at least in part due to..... repeatedly distorting the facts in his posts

I think the mods have better things to do and have simply given up on policing the ranks for banned members who manage to sneak back in.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Livbucks did not say he was relaying a story or reporting a rumor. He stated that it was a fact that the record buck was an orphaned wild PA deer.
That is what he said with no qualifiers or conditions. If you make claims based on stories and rumors and slander somebody based on that you are still guilty of slander even if you believed the rumors to be true.

The fact is Goliath was probably the product of a genetic anomaly and it is possible that neither one of his parents had exceptional genetic potential for antler development. Sometime strange things happen as a result of the reproductive process such as 2 headed calves or calves with 5 legs.
But, the bottom line is that genetics were not a problem in our PA deer herd before ARs , and time will tell if they become a problem in the future due to ARs.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

I know, I admit it. I'm no good at wording things with escape clauses, so I can always have a way out. That's the difference between you and me. You know when your lieing, and plan accordingly.
A person who believes they are being truthful wouldn't consider it necessary.
No mens rea-no crime. Just incorrect.
Your days are numbered under that handle, and it's only August!

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Your just wayyy out in space now.
That is a legal term, and I'm not sure you should be using those things.
The mere stating thatI slandered somebody, when clearly by legal definition I did not, is slander in itself though. Well, being on the net, I think I could sell it as libel.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

I wouldnt worry much Greg. It's not slander or libel unless it's not true

I beleive its a true statement when I say you and I have never had to change our name, use our wifes name, oreven make up a new name just to post here

Betyou can't say that can ya Bluebird?

RE: PA antler restriction
 

I didn't say you slandered anyone. I said "IF" you made false claims about someone, not that you did make false claims about someone.
However, BT calling me a liar without being able to back it up ,is in fact slanderous, but who cares, it's the internet.
I agree that whatever you were trying to say is incorrect. So you see even you and I can agree on something.;)

RE: PA antler restriction
 

If I give you the last word, do you think you'd stop?

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Creating a new identity to get around a ban is a lie
Posing asones wife to get around a ban is a lie
If my statement abovewere false you'd have a case of slander/libel

Come and get me!:D

RE: PA antler restriction
 

I only joined this site a short time ago.I think I made a mistake.The amount of bickering and bullcrap,not to mention thread hijacking is more prevelant than any other site I have been on. Please, don'tget me wrong.There is a lot of intelligent,and informative info posted here,by some seemingly nice and intelligent people. So why don't you kids just exchange phone numbers and leave some space for ......... I don't know........hunting related issues. LIAR,LIAR,PANTS ON FIRE!!!!!!!!!!!

RE: PA antler restriction
 

For those who still believe that genetics do not play a significant role in antler development here is an interesting quote from Dr. John Williams.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Another clever slice of information. Please cite the source of this quote.

As you have presented it, it appears to claim that genetics are the dominant componenet and that simply is not true.


This quote can't possibly be taken seriously without any reference to age class. My bet is that age is addressed and noted as a key componenein the rest of what the good doctor said but you failed to provide. The only way that statement can make any scientififc sense is if age is held as a constant.

Without proper context, your "quoted facts" once again fail to support your point.

All the respected deer biologists I've read have likened antler develpmoent to a three legged stool. Genetics, nutrition and age. Just as a three legged stool wont work with only two legs,antler development is a failure when one component is lacking.

BTW just a side note: most wildlife biologists will also note that the doe is just as important in carryling the genetics forward that dictate antler develpoment and that it is virtually impossible to manage doe genetics in the wild for the antler growth of their offspring


Oh yeah, no responseto my prior challenge??? :

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Obviously the study compared bucks in the same age class. It also eliminated age and nutrition as variables because it compared bucks of the same age that were fed the same diet. here is the link.
http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/huntwild...ers_inherited/

BTW, since you apparently don't know the definition of a lie, your challenge didn't merit a response.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Thanks, all I needed.
[ol][*][/ol]
It just disproves your assertion that you can highgrade a herd, by removing one 1.5 year old buck (8-point) over another 1.5 (sub-legal).
You have proven conclusively, everything Bob and I had been saying
Thanks again...you're the best!!!

RE: PA antler restriction
 

We are doing the exact opposite ,so the obvious expected results would be a decrease in antler genetics.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

HELLO!
Do you not read???
Says that no correlation can be made to futureantler development from the first few years...
Or something to that extent.
Go back and find what I'm referring to and report back to me OK?

RE: PA antler restriction
 

You should have tried to read the rest of the report because if you would have you would have found the following.

The six points you listed were the findings by Dr. Jacobson that the article by Dr. Williams refuted.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

I'm from NY and have been hunting PA for five years because I thought AR was a good idea. Not anymore! NY has some darn nice Bucks and no AR. I hope it stays that way. It's food and habitat that grows Big Bucks not AR. Cameron Co. PA, and Allegany Co. NY. But I do like the BIG TREES!

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Well, that is a bad comparison, becauseI have hunted Cameron, and there is some very bad habitat there. I would hunt somewheres else.
Cameron has probably the worst deer hunting in the state.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

im one that does not like AR. though ive been hunting for over 40 years and still have to work for a living, i dont get a lot of time off to hunt. my suggestion is those that want to follow the AR, they can be choosy about taking bigger deer. those of us that do not hunt for horns, let us take a smaller buck. i hunt for the venison to eat not the horns. now the PGC has changed the buck and doe season in my WMU this year which makes it even harder to hunt and takes away hunting time from us. i wish they would quit fooling around and let things the way they were.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Well, one study of 104 deer was used to refute another study of 150 deer over a 15 year period.
The two largest bucks from the15 year study were 3 points (spike and a fork obviously) at 1.5 years.
These are bucks you would shoot as fawns??

RE: PA antler restriction
 

No, I prefer to shoot adult doe, but if 44% of the harvest aren't fawns ,our sustainable harvest will drop like a rock and we will all see fewer buck and fewer deer over the long term.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

I'm with ya Mr. Slim. PA needs to get rid of AR and make smaller game units so they can manage the herd better. 40+ years in the woods of NY and I've seen woods that looked like a sheep pasture and see it now, It's a whole lot better hunting now than 40 years ago, in NY that is..might se 50 - 60 deer a day in the old days and 4 or 5 today but its better!!

RE: PA antler restriction
 

QDMA studies are now showing approximately 80% of PA hunters surveyed favor AR's where close to 80% were against them or were at least skeptical before they were instituted.

There are still flaw and there are still regions where the deer numbers and forest health are terrible. Cameron County is right up among the worst if not THE worst. Perhaps you need to adapt and look for a new hunting area within PA. You say NY is so much better, why even spend the $$ for gas the nonresident license if it's so much better at home?

RE: PA antler restriction
 

I like the AR's changed the way I hunted. I do beleive they should realign the WMU's , as these cover much diverse areas. This would bring in line yourideas of less doe permits in harder hit counties and more pressure on the counties that seem to be teeming w/ deer.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Prior to the implementation of ARs approx. 57% of PA hunters supported ARs. A more recent survey showed 57% of the PA hunters rated the deer management plan as fair to poor. the survey is no longer available on the pGC website so don't bother asking for a link.

Furthermore , I wouldn't give a plug nickels worth of credibility to a survey conducted by the QDMA since they have a history of manipulating data to support their agenda of bigger racked bucks.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

What's that saying... The pot calling the kettle black....