RE: PA antler restriction
 

Wrong again,

That arguement is full of holes. You intentionally create those holes by leaving out important facts. The expected harvest is calculated based on the present kill rates. The PGC knows, percentage wise,how many BB's get killed. If , over time, the% of BB'skilled as anlerless deer drops then theantlerless tag allocations will get adjusted to compensate for it. It's a simple enough concept that I'm sure youare able to grasp it. I beleive you simply choose to ignore it because it doesn't fit your agenda.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

You are very well versed in the facts Bob, I'm glad you stopped by!!
He does leave many facts out and picks only those that suit his agenda.
I thinkI noted that very thing, a page or two back.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

BTB & livbucks

I reallythinkyou guys are waisting time on this. I think thereare some really sour grapes involved here.Some of these guys don't even live in Pa.They ask for proof because they're not seeing what we're seeing. How can they expect to come to Pa. for a couple days a year and see or kill big deer? That takes a lot of prep work. When I use to go up to deer camp in Mifflin County it was pure luck when stumbled across a nice buck. I know that. I never expected to see or kill every year. That's not going to happen without spending time up there scouting earlier in theyear which is something I couldn't do.

Nice pictures by the way and good luck this year. As for me, I'm going out back and shoot some arrows so when that elusive small spindly racked buck comes by I'll be ready.;)

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Really? So why do those whitetail farms sell their biggest bucks to other deer growers for huge amounts of money?? If any deer can grow the same huge antlers they would use spindly antlered bucks to breed with their does and not cough up the money to try to produce bigger bucks than anyone else. I will agree that a 5 year old buck in general will have better antlers than a 2 year old, but a 5 year old with poorer genetics traits will never match the one with the good traits. So genetics has a whole LOT to do with antler development.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

You're probably right CCPA. Some of this is definitely guys from far away who have very limited knowledge of our great state.

As for ole deadderr/ bluebird2/beenthere/ddear/LarrySattelite/etc etc...Something in me just won't let blatant lies go unchallenged. A lie well stuck to and told with an air of authority ( Old Larry's M.O.) needs to be challenged to prevent the casual passerby from accepting the lie. One only needs to watch our electoral process in this great country to know that lies told with authority can and will stick when left unchallenged.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Well Steve, there was an orphaned buck fawn from PA that was raised in captivity, and it became the highest scoring captive whitetail ever at the time. If antler development was mostly based on genetics, and PA has "BAD" ..."shot out" genetics, as was claimed, well, tell me....what are the odds????
You guys....you crack me up with your notions.

Fast-fact.....Did you know that antler size is influenced by social conditions???
Think on that for a little while, even research it a bit.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Whether you realize it or not you just agree with what I said in my post. But you left out one important point because it didn't fit your agenda. That is , many of those hunters that pass on BB will shoot an adult doe instead, so the PGC won't have to issue a lot of additional tags the following year.

Anytime you feel up to posting a few of my so called lies , I will be happy to refute your claims with PGC stats or quotes from Dr. Rosenbery, Bret Wallingford or Dr. Demarias or Dr. Kroll. I can't wait to see what you come up with ,but I won't be holding my breath.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Somebody raised the issue of states like Illinois (where i hunt) that don't have AR. I wouldn't be surprised if they are eventually proposed in Illinois. But if it does happen, the driving force behind it will be outfitters that want to increase the number of trophy bucks even more as well astrophy hunters whose desire for even bigger racks to hang on the wall over-rides all other considerations. But, its the sqeaky wheel that gets the grease. So, if some folks are willing to put in a lot of effort to promote their agenda, then they tend to be the ones that get to call the shots.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Would you please post a link that documents that record captive buck? I have a PGN article that tells a different story.

Do bucks that belong to country clubs have bigger racks? What does Dr. Kroll have to say about social conditions? IMHO, Most big bucks that survive in PA are pretty anti-social.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Well uh... see above! I just did what you asked!


Here's a well known quote from someone I'm sure you regard as a mentor and hero.....

"I gues it just depends on what your definition of "is" is"

RE: PA antler restriction
 

No you didn't. You simply posted your opinions. You didn't come close to showing that I lied about anything.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Again, you are absolutely right here. In general I would have to say that avid trophy hunters get more involved in the decision making process with the game departments because they will care more about the possible benefits than the weekend hunters who are actually the majority of people who will purchase hunting licenses. As you said, the more vocal ones will get the game departments to listen even if it's BS what they are saying. A state like Illinois WILL probably go to AR restrictions. They will see it as something that could possibly bring in even more money to the state since they could have another good excuse to raise non-resident licenses even more. To me a game department should be in charge of controlling a deer population. The antler size of the male deer that get shot or survive should not matter in the least to them, since in the scheme of things, it doesn't matter one bit. They should be concerned with deer numbers and not antler points. Leave the antler points to the trophy hunters who will get their wierd macho thrills by having a bigger racked buck to show off!

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Even though I live in WV, I spend a lot of time in PA. I live close to the border. I am getting ready to leave the house right now to go to PA and shoot some ground hog's. I have been seeing a lot of good deer this year in PA and WV. It looks like it is going to be a good year.

As stated earlier I can not argue about deere management in other areas of PA, but I can guarantee you that the herd has improved in our area-and IMO it is because of AR's. It could be somethi ng else, but I believe it is AR's.

As far as BB's are concerned. It should be illegal to shoot BB's. The bottom line is if you are not sure then DO NOT SHOOT. Any hunter who can not tell the difference does not need to be in the woods. Tom.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

In order for the PGC to get the antlerless harvest they desire,they have to include BB in the definition of antlerless deer. Remember, many hunters don't have the opportunity to study a deers physical characteristics before taking a shot. Guy's that hunt 2G where the sustainable antlerless harvest is less than 2 deer/SM don't get to see a lot of deer and after the first day very few deer stand around long enough to have their picture taken.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

BlueBird I hear what you are saying. And I really do not mean to be argumentative. But I am not buying it(not attacking you). The bottom line is if you do not know then DO NOT SHOOT. We do not let our youngins shoot. We teach our youngins. I do realize there are hunters out there that do not know what they are doing. I understandthat. But if you can not see then you can not get a drivers license?? I relize what I am saying is a little "Pie in the sky", but it just makes me sick when I see a grown man checking in a button buck that he shot in the a**, and what little meat there was is totally destroyed.

Deer hunting faces two major problems in the future. The first problem is the politicians who make the laws. They have no idea what they are doing, but they have the power.

The second problem is MONEY. Politicians see the deer herd as dollars, hunting heritage means nothing to them.

If we really cared about deer management then we would leave all the regulating to the biologists. But do you really think they would do any better?? I doubt it. Tom.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

If you pass on a bb and then kill a mature doe,how many future bucks did you save?

RE: PA antler restriction
 

If you pass on a bb and then kill a mature doe,how many future bucks did you save?

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Glad to see you realize it is a pie in the sky solution. There is nothing wrong with promoting the practice on a voluntary basis, but the PGC could not manage the herd if they made BB illegal.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

I'm starting to believe that there are a lot of guys that are just plain skeeered of having mature bucks in the woods they hunt.
There are isolated incidents of bucks attacking hunters, but it is very rare guys, so relax, OK?

RE: PA antler restriction
 

I admit it, I like mature bucks. I'm proud of it too!
I also admit to being proud to be an American, my whole life.
I said the Pledge of Allegiance every morning at school, andI always, and still, place my hand on my heart when the Star Spangled Banner plays.

You've outted me I guess...:D

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Where is the link to that record captive buck you were telling us about?

RE: PA antler restriction
 

So you think we should shoot BB's??

BlueBird you are probably right. I just do not like it. Well I guess I have to add that to the list of everything else I do not like. Man that list is getting long. Tom.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

I don't want to speak for Livbucks but you do this all the time when given a fact that doesnt fit your agenda. His name was Goliath from Knox PA. Google it and do your own research!

RE: PA antler restriction
 

I never said we should shoot bb's.I asked how many future bucks you save by passing onbb and then killing a mature doe.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

I was wondering if that was the buck to which he was referring. Thanks a lot for helping him out.

Unfortunately for you ,that fact does fit my agenda ,because I never said we had a problem with the genetics of our herd prior to ARs. That was one of the few points where I agreed with Alt.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Thanks Bob. That is what I was referring to. You knew it. I knew it.
I just figured I'd give a little test to see who here knows the even the common stuff about what we are discussing. I actually wonder what planet some of them live on.:eek:

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Listen up everyone!!!!
PA HAS BAD GENETICS....DON"T HUNT HERE!!!
Hardy har harrrrr...

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Now here is something that is basically a matter of personal opinion. Is an atypical garbage rack like that ,an indication of good genetics or bad genetics? Personally, if I was presented with the choice , I would prefer a typical rack with good mass, long tines and a good spread.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Bob, are you thinking what I'm thinking?;)

RE: PA antler restriction
 

2UBirdBlue.....do you see the incredible symmetry in that rack?? Besides mass, the symmetry is not to be believed on that buck. For a Non-Typical, that is so rare, it almost is a typical by default!
What's funny is the semen was worth a fortune, and he was just an ordinary orphaned PA fawn. Oh, from what humble beginnings.....

RE: PA antler restriction
 

I took Bob's advice and did a search as he suggested and here is what I found.

Do you think it might be illegal to sell a deer that was rescued from the wild PA herd?

RE: PA antler restriction
 

First of all, orphaned fawns can be obtained under certain circumstances from the PGC.

Second, you didn't name the source of your quote but I know thatI also read the published story that said he was an orphaned fawn. It is quite possible that he was sold after that. A domesticated deer is private property just like a cow and can be bought and sold

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Symmetry or no symmetry, this guys wild cousin is gettin the blade if he comes by my treestand. (once he's old enough)

RE: PA antler restriction
 

The whole thing aside....genetics are really not the sole guiding force in antler development. What I was trying to elude to is that the prevalence of large racks in the midwest and the portion of Canada above is caused by environmental factors, namely the nutrients in the soil and vegetation of that region.
It's all about nutrition mainly.
Just look at an area that had logging activity within the preceding decade and you will see a huge jump in antler size. I've seen it.
Age and nutrition are the key. If it's dead at 18 months, there is no way to ever know or judge the potential.
Remember, It was still believed not long ago that once a spike: always a spike. Where that came from I have no idea!

RE: PA antler restriction
 

While I agree that is true,would you be so kind as to provide the regulation that allows an individual to sell that deer on the open market. It is illegal to sell legally killed venison, it is illegal to sell the rack of a legally killed buck after one year , but you claim it is legal to sell a deer that has been obtained from the wild if one has obtained a permit from the PGC.

I didn't name the source since I thought you would be smart enough to do the search before you challenged my credibility, after you called me a liar. But, I guess I was WRONG AGAIN and you weren't smart enough to do that search.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Now that you were caught in a lie, you simply want to dismiss the fact that you lied and change the subject to nutrition. Well ,only someone that is brain dead would deny that antler development is related to nutrition. But, the fact still remains that there is a significant variation in antler development between bucks within the same geographical area that can not be explained by nutrition.

So would you please explain why some 2.5 bucks are spikes while other 2.5 + buck in the same area are 8 or 10 pts.?

RE: PA antler restriction
 

I've hunted in the Midwest (West Central Illinois) for the last 10 years and they don't have antler restrictions and I doubt that they ever will. Thehunters I have met over those years have a totally different mindset about harvesting deer. If someone other than a young kid shoots an immature buck, he tends to hide it and quietly take it home. It is not an acceptable practice in most circles there. It is simply a culture difference between the regions. Sure they have better feed and better mineral content in their soil but they also recognize that age is the really dominant factor in antler develpoment. The genes there are good but not any better than we have in many parts of PA. I see plenty of forkhorns but they are ALL young deer. Without age, a buck will never even get close to his potential. The vast majority of hunters out there strive to not shoot bucks till they are 3.5 or older. They also shoot all the does they can.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

A theif doesnt steal everything he ever needs but he's still a theif
A farmer doesnt groweverything he eats but he's still a farmer
You may spit out a true phrase occasionally but you are still a liar
A clever one maybe, a persistant one for sure but still just a liar

RE: PA antler restriction
 

No lie on my part. This story was widely circulated as I related it. If itIS true as I said, and the history was "re-written" to prevent legal liability, so be it. I'm not responsible for the acts of others.
There are many guys that heard the same story.
I do know that since CWD, there are wholesale changes in the handling of orphaned fawns in PA. Currently, there is no permission of any kind to take wild fawns and raise them. Under the new rules, anybody that possesses one will pay $200, and the fawn WILL be destroyed. No exceptions.
These are new regulations as of late.
Believe me blueboyd, I never say somethingI know to be untrue. That is not my intention EVER.

The development of a bucks first few racks are dependant on Dam health, litter size, available browse and most importantly: birth date.
Once mature, those variances will even out.

RE: PA antler restriction
 

Anytime you think you are man enough to support your claim that I am a liar, I will be more than happy to meet that challenge. You and Livbucks have been caught in a flat out, documented lie, but aren't man enough to admit you were wrong. I deal with facts and you make up stories and laws that you can't document to support your position.

Can you provide one example where a deer that was removed from the wild in PA was sold as a domestic animal?