Possible Mt lion track
01-06-2007, 05:51 PM
#31
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: California
Posts: 896
RE: Possible Mt lion track
Cougars are extremely elusive animals. I know we have them here in California: they maim andkill people every now and then. However while hunting or fishing I have never seen one or even any sign of one.
Caldoc
Caldoc
01-07-2007, 01:21 PM
#32
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: PA.
Posts: 5,195
RE: Possible Mt lion track
ORIGINAL: Californiadoctor
Cougars are extremely elusive animals. I know we have them here in California: they maim andkill people every now and then. However while hunting or fishing I have never seen one or even any sign of one.
Caldoc
Cougars are extremely elusive animals. I know we have them here in California: they maim andkill people every now and then. However while hunting or fishing I have never seen one or even any sign of one.
Caldoc
that track is not bobcat..its a dog or mountain lion, i feel..LABS will make 1 big set of tracks..
good info, could you tell us the county you saw this print in?i know they are seeing a montain lion in CLINTON COUNTY..most of sighting are always in summer/fall, never in winter..
01-07-2007, 02:04 PM
#33
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Western NY
Posts: 339
RE: Possible Mt lion track
Track was found in Cattaraugus County NY
I di not believe the track is a conine track - you should see toe nail imprints if it were canine especialy in sand they should be readily visable. There is a rotwiler that runs around near where I found this track but his tracks are even smaller than this one and I have never seen him on the side of the creek this track was on.
I di not believe the track is a conine track - you should see toe nail imprints if it were canine especialy in sand they should be readily visable. There is a rotwiler that runs around near where I found this track but his tracks are even smaller than this one and I have never seen him on the side of the creek this track was on.
01-07-2007, 03:01 PM
#34
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: PA.
Posts: 5,195
RE: Possible Mt lion track
ORIGINAL: jhoffman
Track was found in Cattaraugus County NY
I di not believe the track is a conine track - you should see toe nail imprints if it were canine especialy in sand they should be readily visable. There is a rotwiler that runs around near where I found this track but his tracks are even smaller than this one and I have never seen him on the side of the creek this track was on.
Track was found in Cattaraugus County NY
I di not believe the track is a conine track - you should see toe nail imprints if it were canine especialy in sand they should be readily visable. There is a rotwiler that runs around near where I found this track but his tracks are even smaller than this one and I have never seen him on the side of the creek this track was on.
i am not saying its not mountain lion, you would know, you are out there trapping..but dont expect anyone but a few of us to agree with you that it is mountain lion..
pa.is doing their best to saythat they dont exist, trust me, they do and someday ole sproul is going to get one on his camcorder, i carry it a lot now..
01-08-2007, 06:38 AM
#35
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,262
RE: Possible Mt lion track
Sproulman,how in the world can people find tracks in thedirt but not in the snow?Show us one quote or one piece of evidence that says the PGC is doing everything,to say they don't exist.All they've ever said is that there's no concrete evidence.
01-08-2007, 06:40 AM
#36
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Western NY
Posts: 339
RE: Possible Mt lion track
Where abouts in PA are you from sproulman - I have property in St.Marys - there is a lot of land down there to cover and very remote in sections. We have a good number of Elk down by our place and as big as they are they slip in and out of the laurel and disappear on a moments notice - if a 900 lbs elk can hide that well you can imaging what a lion, bobcat or lynx could do with that kind of cover.
It is possible though I do not think likely that the track I found could be a dog but it would be one of the larget dogs I have seen if it is.
It is possible though I do not think likely that the track I found could be a dog but it would be one of the larget dogs I have seen if it is.
01-08-2007, 08:10 AM
#37
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 196
RE: Possible Mt lion track
I'll take the cougar thing serious when there is one --- just one, shred of credible evidence.
Deer are the cougars favored food. An 18 month old cougar will kill and consume one deer --- per week! That means --- 52 deer carcasses per year. Cougar kills are very easilly identified and deer skeletons-bones remain visible for a period ofyears. (mine from three years ago is still visible in my woods)
Given all these "sightings" there should be many hundreds, if not thousands, of cougar kills found by hunters. Zip -- nada!
No tracks in snow! Oops, what does that tell you?
No photos, videos, or confirmed sightings.......
The PGC, as someone else stated, does not say there are "no" cougars. They simply say -- we need proof.
Actually, the PGC has recovered some cougars. Each and every one of them, (to my knowledge) has had a lip tattoo, a collar, an ear tag or --- in the case of one incident; the cougar jumped into the WCO's open truck and sat on the seat --- wanting to go for a ride!
They "do" investigate.
If I want a single washed out, muddled track, in sand or gravel to be a cougar track, instead of a bear or bobcat track then by golly --- it is acougar track.
Deer are the cougars favored food. An 18 month old cougar will kill and consume one deer --- per week! That means --- 52 deer carcasses per year. Cougar kills are very easilly identified and deer skeletons-bones remain visible for a period ofyears. (mine from three years ago is still visible in my woods)
Given all these "sightings" there should be many hundreds, if not thousands, of cougar kills found by hunters. Zip -- nada!
No tracks in snow! Oops, what does that tell you?
No photos, videos, or confirmed sightings.......
The PGC, as someone else stated, does not say there are "no" cougars. They simply say -- we need proof.
Actually, the PGC has recovered some cougars. Each and every one of them, (to my knowledge) has had a lip tattoo, a collar, an ear tag or --- in the case of one incident; the cougar jumped into the WCO's open truck and sat on the seat --- wanting to go for a ride!
They "do" investigate.
If I want a single washed out, muddled track, in sand or gravel to be a cougar track, instead of a bear or bobcat track then by golly --- it is acougar track.
01-08-2007, 09:35 AM
#38
Join Date: Feb 2003
Location: Harrisburg PA USA
Posts: 69
RE: Possible Mt lion track
Again I'd like to try to provide a small ration of insight to the ongoing and needlessly contentious discussion regarding the subject of pumas---or mtn lions cougars, panthers, etc...---in Pennsylvania. In short, despite the best intentions and efforts of Dr. Wydra and countless other individuals to document the many reports and various "evidence" for pumas, the species does not occur---at least not in any number (ie there are probably less than 5 individual cats, if even that many) in the PA area. And there is no cover up, no conspiracy, so please let's drop that angle. We've heard it ad nauseum related to coyotes, rattlesnakes, black helicpoters, and cattle mutilations, and it it is getting tiresome.
Please hear this. Across the vast range of the species, experience and history have demonstrated that where there are pumas in any number, even small numbers, they are detected. Like gravity, this is a simple, inalterable, natural truth. Detection may take the form of road-kills, indisputable photos of tracks or the cats themselves, hunter or farmer shot animals, or any number of other corroborative techniques. So far, despite over 75 yrs and thousands of reports, only 1 puma has been confirmed in PA. Here of course I refer to the 1967 Gallant case in western PA where 1 small puma was shot and killed and another was reportedly seen at the same time. So, 1cat absolutely confirmed in PA in 75-100 years. Contrast this with what has occurred in the Great Plains and Midwest over only the past decade, where upwards of 30 or more indisputable confirmations of pumas have been made (go! to The Cougar Network website for full!! deta! ils)---and this in a region that historically, over the same 75-100 yrs, has had very few puma sightings. So what gives? As I have stated before, the difference between the two areas is that the Great Plains and Midwest actually have pumas. And not many even at that. Indeed, the areas of the Great Plains and Midwest where pumas have been confirmed often don't harbor many people either (ie rural Iowa, Nebraska, or North Dakota), yet when and where the two come together there are bonafide confirmations.
With over 1 million deer hunters and other outdoorspeopeople with guns and traps and bows and cameras in the PA woods, plus the state's busy, traffic-laden highways and hundreds or more annual deer road-kills, it is logical to assume that, as happens everywhere else where there are a few pumas (Arkansas, Minnesota, Nebraska, Illinois, Iowa, Oklahoma, North Dakota, Missouri, etc...), someone would get indisputable proof. It hasn't happened. Now, it might happen tomorrow---and I do believe there may well be a few (very few) wandering pumas circulating thru OH, PA, NY, MD, and WVA---but so far it hasn't. What about all of the convincing reports, you ask? In my experience, and I have looked at a lot of track and cat pics and video clips, people are most often mistaken; clearly what they have documented is a bobcat or even a housecat. I know it sounds incredible and people get angry when they ! hear this, but well-collected evi! denc!! e does not lie. And, honestly, few people are as capable at critical observervation as they like to think. Moreover, if one were to really get analytical, they would likely find that PA's mtn lion reports, and the growing number of them, both spatially and temporally very closely parallel the return of the bobcat into PA's premier bobcat habitat over the past decades. One also has to consider the psycho-social aspect of this subject----for instance let's look at the hype and hysteria that surrounds every report, and how a single, even erroneous report of a large mystery cat can trigger a sequence of other reports. Jim, your very own recent sensationalized article about a deer reportedly killed by a puma, as witnessed by a state employee, is one such example. Actually the evidence collected at the scene attributed to the attack to a bobcat, yet your version makes no mention of this evidence (known bobcat hab! itat, bobcat tracks in the area! ,! ! a perfect fit of a bobcat jaw with th e wounds on the deer, similar re ports in the scientific literature, etc...). I wonder how many of your readers will now be stimulated into "seeing" a mtn lion next time they see a tawny brown animal dart across the road?
As far as proposals for puma research go, the best thing one who is hoping to collect evidence of mtn lions today can do is tactically place out remote cameras, track pits, and hair snares in areas where both prey and puma sighting densities are high. Using these simple techniques, even without intensive research protocols and structured strategies, average laypeople and outdoorsmen in other areas routinely are able to confirm puma presence. There is nothing magical about it. And if someone really wanted to get aggressive, they could place cable leg snares and jawed traps too, but such techniques, or the use of hounds, are best postponed until there is actual hard evidence of puma presence.
I heartily commend the PGC for taking a more proactive stance on dealing with the many puma reports it receives. The subject tends to be time consuming and frustrating, both for those who claim to have seen pumas and those who have to follow up. But, as I have always said, even if only one out of a thousand reports is valid, we need to explain it. Also, historically, where there are lots of puma reports, eventually it seems at least one cat is confirmed. My team at the American Ecological Research Institute (--AERIE) is well versed in puma documentation, capture, and research. I am also a board member of the Eastern Cougar Foundation, a group interested in establishing appropriate, sensible, scientifically based management and conservation standards, including possible harvest strategies, for pumas that may today or eventually occur in eastern North America. If either group and I can be of! assistance, and I definitely see ! some!! opportunities for this, please let me know. We are happy to help.
Best regards,
Jay Tischendorf DVM
Director
American Ecological Research Institute (--AERIE)
Great Falls, Montana
406 453-7233
Please hear this. Across the vast range of the species, experience and history have demonstrated that where there are pumas in any number, even small numbers, they are detected. Like gravity, this is a simple, inalterable, natural truth. Detection may take the form of road-kills, indisputable photos of tracks or the cats themselves, hunter or farmer shot animals, or any number of other corroborative techniques. So far, despite over 75 yrs and thousands of reports, only 1 puma has been confirmed in PA. Here of course I refer to the 1967 Gallant case in western PA where 1 small puma was shot and killed and another was reportedly seen at the same time. So, 1cat absolutely confirmed in PA in 75-100 years. Contrast this with what has occurred in the Great Plains and Midwest over only the past decade, where upwards of 30 or more indisputable confirmations of pumas have been made (go! to The Cougar Network website for full!! deta! ils)---and this in a region that historically, over the same 75-100 yrs, has had very few puma sightings. So what gives? As I have stated before, the difference between the two areas is that the Great Plains and Midwest actually have pumas. And not many even at that. Indeed, the areas of the Great Plains and Midwest where pumas have been confirmed often don't harbor many people either (ie rural Iowa, Nebraska, or North Dakota), yet when and where the two come together there are bonafide confirmations.
With over 1 million deer hunters and other outdoorspeopeople with guns and traps and bows and cameras in the PA woods, plus the state's busy, traffic-laden highways and hundreds or more annual deer road-kills, it is logical to assume that, as happens everywhere else where there are a few pumas (Arkansas, Minnesota, Nebraska, Illinois, Iowa, Oklahoma, North Dakota, Missouri, etc...), someone would get indisputable proof. It hasn't happened. Now, it might happen tomorrow---and I do believe there may well be a few (very few) wandering pumas circulating thru OH, PA, NY, MD, and WVA---but so far it hasn't. What about all of the convincing reports, you ask? In my experience, and I have looked at a lot of track and cat pics and video clips, people are most often mistaken; clearly what they have documented is a bobcat or even a housecat. I know it sounds incredible and people get angry when they ! hear this, but well-collected evi! denc!! e does not lie. And, honestly, few people are as capable at critical observervation as they like to think. Moreover, if one were to really get analytical, they would likely find that PA's mtn lion reports, and the growing number of them, both spatially and temporally very closely parallel the return of the bobcat into PA's premier bobcat habitat over the past decades. One also has to consider the psycho-social aspect of this subject----for instance let's look at the hype and hysteria that surrounds every report, and how a single, even erroneous report of a large mystery cat can trigger a sequence of other reports. Jim, your very own recent sensationalized article about a deer reportedly killed by a puma, as witnessed by a state employee, is one such example. Actually the evidence collected at the scene attributed to the attack to a bobcat, yet your version makes no mention of this evidence (known bobcat hab! itat, bobcat tracks in the area! ,! ! a perfect fit of a bobcat jaw with th e wounds on the deer, similar re ports in the scientific literature, etc...). I wonder how many of your readers will now be stimulated into "seeing" a mtn lion next time they see a tawny brown animal dart across the road?
As far as proposals for puma research go, the best thing one who is hoping to collect evidence of mtn lions today can do is tactically place out remote cameras, track pits, and hair snares in areas where both prey and puma sighting densities are high. Using these simple techniques, even without intensive research protocols and structured strategies, average laypeople and outdoorsmen in other areas routinely are able to confirm puma presence. There is nothing magical about it. And if someone really wanted to get aggressive, they could place cable leg snares and jawed traps too, but such techniques, or the use of hounds, are best postponed until there is actual hard evidence of puma presence.
I heartily commend the PGC for taking a more proactive stance on dealing with the many puma reports it receives. The subject tends to be time consuming and frustrating, both for those who claim to have seen pumas and those who have to follow up. But, as I have always said, even if only one out of a thousand reports is valid, we need to explain it. Also, historically, where there are lots of puma reports, eventually it seems at least one cat is confirmed. My team at the American Ecological Research Institute (--AERIE) is well versed in puma documentation, capture, and research. I am also a board member of the Eastern Cougar Foundation, a group interested in establishing appropriate, sensible, scientifically based management and conservation standards, including possible harvest strategies, for pumas that may today or eventually occur in eastern North America. If either group and I can be of! assistance, and I definitely see ! some!! opportunities for this, please let me know. We are happy to help.
Best regards,
Jay Tischendorf DVM
Director
American Ecological Research Institute (--AERIE)
Great Falls, Montana
406 453-7233
01-08-2007, 09:37 AM
#39
Thread Starter
Join Date: Feb 2005
Location: Western NY
Posts: 339
RE: Possible Mt lion track
Neville - what do you refer to when you are talking about my sensationalized article of a deer kill by a cougar? - I do not recall this - I have made post about mt lions before but usually in response to anothers post and I have never found a deer killed by a mt lion - Think you may want to read the entire post and get your facts straight before shooting your mouth off - I asked what people thought about the track I did not come out and state hey look at the Mt Lion track I found - I have seen both bobcats and mt lions and know the difference between the two - if other people cannot tell the difference there really is nothing I can do about that - some people just lack knowledge or only know enough to be dangerous and end up spouting off information that just is not true -
Furthermore I did not ever say it was deffinately a cougar track - I ask what people thought - the only think I was pretty sure of was it was not a dog track -
two - I do not live in PA and the Track was not found in PA I live in NY and the track was found in Delevan NY in Cattaraugus County - about 2 hrs from PA -
Three - The PGC may investigate reports but the NYDEC does not - I know a couple of people who have called and reported sightings or thought they found significant evidence that would indicate a courgar being in the area and no one ever shows up.
Four - I do not blame the DEC for this - I am friends with people who either work for or work with the NYDEC and the explaination that I was given is this: If the DEC admits there are "wild cougar" in NY they have to do a study on the impact of the cougar and habitat studies on the locations of the cougar and put regulations in affect to protect the cougar. They simply do not have this money available and the money they do have is better spent on other projects - they would be forced to do the studies with money they do not have - So basically - if they ignore sightings - or evidence of possible cougar behavior - tracks - kills - scat - then cougars are still not in NY and they do not have to do any studies.
Another bit of info I was given by a DEC office is this - that many of the sightings are probably released cougar or escaped cougar that came from individuals who owned them as exotic pets - most of these cougars are the western variety - not the eastern species - the eastern species is protected in NY and most eastern states - the western species is not because it was never native to NY and is classified as an invassive species if found in NY. If you shoot a cougar to actually fine you the DEC would have to prove it is an eastern Cougar not a western Cougar - if they do the test and find you have shot a western cougar then there is no fine - if they find it is an eastern cougar - then they just confirmed a comeback of the eastern cougar in NY and yes you willl be fined -
I am not one of the people out there that believes there is a mt lion on every ridge in NY and PA - or even that there is a wild sustainable population of them - I believe there could be a handfull of them around and that the chance of them being 100% wild is slim - if they are anything like the common house cat though once in the wild for any amount of time I believe thier instincts would most deffinately revert to wild behavior.
I read the MT lion post on here all the time and I agree that 95% of the sightings and info on Mt lions in the east is B.S. but there are the people out there that really spend a lot of thier time in the woods and who come across things that are out of the ordinary - My uncle has video of lynx in his back yard eating a goose carcase in Cannan, NY (look it up on a map) eastern part of the state near Mass. - There is a fisher in St Marys PA that my grandparents see pretty regularly near thier house. - Just because animals are not supposed to be some where does not mean they are not there.
Furthermore I did not ever say it was deffinately a cougar track - I ask what people thought - the only think I was pretty sure of was it was not a dog track -
two - I do not live in PA and the Track was not found in PA I live in NY and the track was found in Delevan NY in Cattaraugus County - about 2 hrs from PA -
Three - The PGC may investigate reports but the NYDEC does not - I know a couple of people who have called and reported sightings or thought they found significant evidence that would indicate a courgar being in the area and no one ever shows up.
Four - I do not blame the DEC for this - I am friends with people who either work for or work with the NYDEC and the explaination that I was given is this: If the DEC admits there are "wild cougar" in NY they have to do a study on the impact of the cougar and habitat studies on the locations of the cougar and put regulations in affect to protect the cougar. They simply do not have this money available and the money they do have is better spent on other projects - they would be forced to do the studies with money they do not have - So basically - if they ignore sightings - or evidence of possible cougar behavior - tracks - kills - scat - then cougars are still not in NY and they do not have to do any studies.
Another bit of info I was given by a DEC office is this - that many of the sightings are probably released cougar or escaped cougar that came from individuals who owned them as exotic pets - most of these cougars are the western variety - not the eastern species - the eastern species is protected in NY and most eastern states - the western species is not because it was never native to NY and is classified as an invassive species if found in NY. If you shoot a cougar to actually fine you the DEC would have to prove it is an eastern Cougar not a western Cougar - if they do the test and find you have shot a western cougar then there is no fine - if they find it is an eastern cougar - then they just confirmed a comeback of the eastern cougar in NY and yes you willl be fined -
I am not one of the people out there that believes there is a mt lion on every ridge in NY and PA - or even that there is a wild sustainable population of them - I believe there could be a handfull of them around and that the chance of them being 100% wild is slim - if they are anything like the common house cat though once in the wild for any amount of time I believe thier instincts would most deffinately revert to wild behavior.
I read the MT lion post on here all the time and I agree that 95% of the sightings and info on Mt lions in the east is B.S. but there are the people out there that really spend a lot of thier time in the woods and who come across things that are out of the ordinary - My uncle has video of lynx in his back yard eating a goose carcase in Cannan, NY (look it up on a map) eastern part of the state near Mass. - There is a fisher in St Marys PA that my grandparents see pretty regularly near thier house. - Just because animals are not supposed to be some where does not mean they are not there.
01-08-2007, 11:23 AM
#40
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: PA.
Posts: 5,195
RE: Possible Mt lion track
ORIGINAL: DougE
Sproulman,how in the world can people find tracks in thedirt but not in the snow?Show us one quote or one piece of evidence that says the PGC is doing everything,to say they don't exist.All they've ever said is that there's no concrete evidence.
Sproulman,how in the world can people find tracks in thedirt but not in the snow?Show us one quote or one piece of evidence that says the PGC is doing everything,to say they don't exist.All they've ever said is that there's no concrete evidence.
do you feel that was right response to give a person who saw i mountain lion??
you are right, sounds like they are real interested ?