I could agree with AR but if my wife or sons want to take thier first deer and it`s a spike or fork I wouldn`t be able to tell them no don`t shoot.

And you seem to go out of your way to bash me a lot. I always expect you to chime in whenever I post my opinion here.

How am I bashing NY? I live in NY, have done the vast majority of my hunting in NY, owned hunting land in NY, am sworn to protect NY, the list goes on. Pointing out the obvious lack of effective deer managment, at least until recently, is not bashing NY. While the Western tier of NY seems to be popular with hunters, and Long Island is a consistent producer, the adirondacks are mostly dried up, and the south-east is WAY over hunted. Being someone who mostly hunts public land, shoot me if I gravitate to a state where public land hunting is much more productive than NY's. Not to mention that there are people who see NJ as "the next texas" sort of state to be honest.

YEARS of extensive quality management have produced a healthy deer herd with a proper age structure. Ny has not done that at all.Year after year I see mostly spikes being taken from the zones I hunt in NY, and last year I hunted 6 seperate zones on multiple occasions. While of coruse that does not mean that people aren't taking trophy bucks there, but it is a lot of time spent out to not see even one. Not to mention too much time spent on boards like this without seeing one post about a large NY buck anytime recently.

I personally feel that NY needs some sort of improvement, and I would love to see it so that I can enjoy my hunting here more. I see bigger bucks on Staten Island than in the Catskills, and that's the truth! Right now, I feel that A/R is the way to go. Could I be wrong? Of course, but I see this workign in other places, so why not here? Until someone shows me the benefits of cleaning the woods out of its 1 1/2 year old bucks every year, I will keep the same opinion.

That is EXACTLY what 3pt AR would do to most of NY!!
Studies by CNY Whitetails( the group in CNY that wanted ridiculus restrictions in 7j, 7h and 7m(?), showed that better then 60% of the NY 1 1/2 old bucks are 6 point or better!

Again I ask: Howcould targeting the best of the year 1/2 class while protectingthe spike and forks be good for anything other than trophy hunters in search of that elusive 6 point? All true hunters know that a 1 1/2 6 point or greater is a FAR greater trophy then a spike or fork of the same age or size.

Want to hunt MATURE bucks - simple - let the YOUNG ones walk. Teach and educate others of the benefits of TRUE QDM - and forget the half baked attempts at mandatory TROPHY management.

Phade - good to see you back - good luck this weekend!

Steve

If you mean judging bucks'ages based on their necks,faces,and backs, you have a pipe dream going. VERY FEW hunters put in the time or effort to learn enough about whitetails to be able to do that with any sort of accuracy. On private land, that works great: cull the older bucks with inferior genetics and occasionally take a real trophy, while letting the younger ones with potential grow. We all know that most hunters are casual "sportsmen" who go out once, MAYBE twice a year with their budies and drink much more than spend time in the woods. At least an antler restriction would cause some sort of easily recognizeable destinction over what can be shot and what can't.

I base my opinions on public land hunting, wheremost people I see in the woods have no idea about true huntingand could careless about any sort of managment.Dream bucks to them will always be dream bucks!

And it's not like this is some radical movement... A/R has worked in NJ for sure, and there are many who feeel it has worked in PA.

PS.. you proved my point: the elusive 6 point? Where is a 6 pointer even close to a trophy? They are certainly elusive in NY, but definately not a trophy.

Easy to make a broad bush generalization based on myths and half truths. Let me try one. "And we know all cops sit in the donut shop all day." Pretty silly isn't it?

And even if most hunters are casual, what gives the "true" sportsman such as yourself the right to dictate their hunt


Thought sarcasm could be understood.
Elusive? Hardly - see my post on CNY - OVER 60% OF THE1 1/2 OLD BUCKSCNY are 6 POINT OR BETTER!!!!!

And if you put in 3 point AR they become a trophy!!! The goal of mandatory AR.

Still waiting to hear how targeting and killing all the 60% plus of the 1 1/2 old bucks with3 point or better will be good.

No good bucks in NY? Where do all the photos come from every 2 weeks in NY Outdoor News? Some outstanding photos and many from that darned public land. http://www.nyoutdoornews.com/

Guess that would depend on who you talk to and what your definition of "works" is. I talk to hunters every week in Pa who are disgusted with their management plan and their liscence sales took another drop this year.

Steve

I'm not trying to dictate anyone's hunt. They can do what they want. I personally would like to see A/R implemented though. Andapparently, other than on this board, it is not just me since we already have it in some zones, which magically are the ones that are most over-hunted and the ones I am talking about where all I see taken are spikes.

Sorry that I missed your sarcasm, but I also never heard that 60% of buck's at 1 1/2 years are 6 pointers. That is definately not true where I hunt, so sorry for basing my opinion on my experience. I cannot quote numbers here, but I will quit hunting in NY if someone can show me that zone 3's numbers are similiar to that! I bet it is not even close.

As for PA, just from reading this forum I see that PA is a messed up state as far as hunting foes. They are always fighting about something. I know what my uncle says though, and where he hunts, he loves the A/R rule and has seen less deer, but bigger bucks, which is exactly what A/R would do ideally. I don't follow PA hunting enough tospeak any deeper than that on the subject.

Just to let you know I'm not bashing you. It was an attempt at an honest question or two.

Steve is quoting biological evidence that is supported by the DEC, and many biologists in NY. The 3 pt. per side rule IS NOT the way to go for state-wide management. That is a fact stated by the state's central deer biologist.

There's a good read in the August issue of NY Game and Fish on antler restrictions. Someone actually took the time and effort to look at it with a "middle of the road approach" that gives both sides. Like I said, it compiles good points for both, but it still remains that hunters are split on this issue. It's not a win-win situation as you promote it to be.

I'm curious about the bold statement.Can you point me to the evidenceyousourced(outside of personal observations, as that is more opinion-based, and not factual) showing that those zones are the ones most over-hunted? The reason the DEC implemented AR there is not because of overhunting...instead it is a biological attempt to get 80% of 1.5 yr. old bucks into the 2.5 yr. old age class. While you may think that is because it is overhunted, that is not the case. Those zoneswere on the level with the rest of the state as far as % harvests pre-AR. If they were overhunted....the DEC would reduce hunting opportunities (ie tags, season dates,DMPs, etc.).

Your underlined statement: What Steve mentioned is regarding statewide numbers. The relevance to Region 3 is that the3pt per side rule works at protecting roughly 80% of the 1.5 yr. old bucks. The problem with that is it doesn't work for several other parts of the state, including the parts of the Adirondacks, the southern tier, and WNY. In those areas, the 3 pt per side would do nothing by wipe out a large majority of 1.5 yr. olds that meet the requirement, creating more biological issues than benefits. The average 1.5 yr old in those areas carries 4-7 points, which may seem shocking, but is true.

You stated earlier that Region 3 is good deer land. While it may not be BAD land, it certainly is not great in overall condition. That's why the 3 pt per side rule is in effect versus a width criterion. What I'm trying to get at is, even WITHOUT hunting, the average 1.5 year old in the 3 WMU's under AR would still be below 5 points in antler size. The DEC did their research on this.

Nobody is saying you are full of crap, or anything of the like. Many people share your belief. However, there are just as many people who have the opposite view.

Why is it fair for you and your group to force what you want on those who don't want it?

Same to you. Looks like this weekend is going to a good practice holding on in the trees! 17-22 mph winds!

That right there is MY major point (although I disagree with the buddies/drinking stereotype, continuing to propagate that is bad).

Most hunters are recreational and only get out a handful of days with friends and family. Why limit their ability to harvest a deer that they would consider a trophyby implementingAR? That's not right, nor fair to them. You say you see guys high fiving each other over bagging a spike buck. I can't see how that is bad. The hunters are extremely happy with that experience.

My old man gets out once every year for one weekend of hunting NY from VA. He was in the Navy for 25 years. He's the definition ofa casual hunter. Who are you to tell my father that the forkhorn he busted in 2005while enjoying a stand during a deer drive with his son, his brother, two of his best old high school pals, and HIS dad that he shouldn't and can't do that? If he didn't harvest that buck, he'd be going on three years without filling a tag. He was absolutelty ELATED he had the opportunity to harvest a deer. It was the only one he had a chance to harvest all weekend, doe or buck.

If you had your way, my father would have been skunked. Don't ruin hunting by enforcing aspects of hunting that should be a private choice. You want to go fill out a trophy tag, that's fine. Go for it. Do some work, scout, get off the road, and hunt. They are out there. But don't go and make it seem like everyone has your same mindset. I'm not doing that to you, as I've stated many times before others share your view. But there are just as many who want to enjoy hunting in their own way.

AR, QDM, Trophy management, etc. should be a personal, and private property choice.