It is my opinion that you certainly have s t r e t c h e d your authority concerning a "mere encounter" with a hunter.

If this is the attitude that the PGC promotes it explains why the agency has so many problems. It's too bad one of your fellow officers didn't have a "mere encounter" with Don Madl.

I only brought it up to see ifMikeE51848and Pa Trophy Man saw any limits to police powers. If they don't then there is really nothing to discuss.

BTW, what would you do if, while doing a license check,you encountered a hunter who reeked of marijuana and you did not find his stash in his pockets or game bag?

Quote:

You do not have to have probable case for a license check, bag check or for stopping and questioning a hunter or a person in a vehicle.

You don't even need reasonable suspicion for these activities and can detain someone who will not comply. These checks,which are in fact compulsory, have nothing to do with Terry stops (requires reasonable suspicion, no requirement to submit to a search [except for apat down for weapons]or to answer questions or to be more than briefly detained) or mere encounters (no suspicion, but whereone can refuse to talk to or remain with the LEO) .

While presently lawful in Pa., these police-state tactics (which are not available to other LEO's) do not endear the PGC to those of us who treasure liberty.

As much as we love it, hunting is recreation, a relatively trivial pursuit in the scheme of things. It pales in importance when compared to issues of national defense, support of family, religion, etc. and is a voluntary pastime.A persondoes not have to submit to this system andcan take up other activities rather than put himself in a position to be abused by PGC officials and still remain a "functional member of society."
Pa. is hemorrhaging hunters relative to other states and this customer relations issue is part of it. It's not just about the deer.

No, nor does your average police officer need probable cause to do a feild check on a driver, etc. But they do not abuse that right, and if they do, they and/or their superiorssoon hear about it.
Resonable suspicion is the key word here. The fact of "just being there" does not nesc fulfill the requirement of resonable suspicion (unless you suspect everyone of being up to criminal activity) but would rather only pass muster as 1 part of several points taken as a whole, including suspicios behavior, etc. The example of "driving down the road" given by Windwalker7 is a fitting one.

Here IS the problem with the way PGC WCOs see things and the way "other" officersdo and maybe it is the training. We do live by a set of standards as a "funtional member of society" (and the way you phrase this last paragraph, and especially this part of it, shows more than a small portion of the arrogance and attitude that has so many persons feeling that the PGC needs to be revamped and held to a higher standard) and in general "we" have no problem with any other Law Enforcement Officers. BUT a pattern seems to have developed over the years where the WCOs of this state have been treating persons with "suspicion that crminal activity is afoot" from the start in most all encounters while other law enforcement is held to a higher standard.

And being one of those "telling stories" I will say this, tho you will most likely disregard regard it as a "story" anyway.
Save those whom I met at public functions like Sports Shows and the like, all of my encountersand those of my family with WCOs have all been negative. I have no reason to beleive that my father, brother, etc are "making it up" or exagerating. I have never broken a law in my life and neither have they, yet only WCOs find the need to treat us with suspicion "of criminal activity" from the start. (and feeling like it is a case of "guilty until proven innocent" every time) In the encounter I posted I mentioned that one of my companions was a State Trooper. I will not post his name and troop just to back up my account because it is not my privalage to do so and I won't do anything to give him grief and he is too well know in the community for it not to. I WILL say this, he, in his experience and training in law enforcement, has said more than once that were he to act like the WCOs he has met it would never be tolerated, either as a public relations item or as a legal one. Same with any other civic police force. Those that do act like that are quickly moved, reassigned or led to finding another feild of work.

Oh, and a reminder. As members of that society, WE are part of those who put "you" in the position of enforcing those laws and as such it is "we" whom you work for. Also, just because someone hasn't taken the PGC to task for the attitude of at least some if it's officers (yet), does not mean that the problem does not exist. ItIS a very difficult and expensive thing to make a case against a Government Agency or it's personell and often takes years and several tries to get the courts to hear the case or the legislature to remedy the situation.

Better would be that you were to take the concerns posted on sites like this to heart and forward them to your superiors and/or the persons directly responsible for the training and education of PGC field personell, especially in the regards of hunter/WCO interaction and encounter management.

Mocha Java,
Thanks. I completely forgot to include the terms of "Terry Stop" in my own response. (heck of a hard time reading that font size, but I managed)

As I often seem to find, someone says in few words what I need many to do nor do I say it as well.

"RSB" I fully understand your need to stop and search people that you encounter when investigating a potential offense. I have been stopped many times and every time I ask "Why are you stopping me? The only reply I have ever gotten is that "It's my duty or, It's my job to check you."

Not only is that answer unacceptable, but in fact if the Game Warden believes this HE is either ignorant of the law or He's deliberately breaking the law.

NEVER has a Game Warden said "I'm investigating a game law violation and I need to check your license."

Maybe it's time for Mike Dubiac and John Shutter to hold a remdedial class for a lot of Game Wardens (and especially the Deputys).

As for me, I think I'll follow "wyomic's" lead and ask my legislators what they think.

I beg to differ. In my area the PSP act as if their $hit don't stink. Now the local police forces (small towns) I have never seen that kind of attitude.

I have seen both sides of our local WCO. He has helped my father-I-L with some ATVer problems (His land abutts PGC access lands owned by 1st energy/GPU). On the flip side he cited by B-I-Laws B-I-Law for having too many doe one year (they have since changed the wording in the digeston how many "unsold" licenses you may have). At times the local WCO does seem to be overzealous in the performance of his duties.


Talk about talking down to...I hope you don't tell your PSP buddy that your taxes pay his salary too.


I'm sure they have heard it before...but I like your suggestion. How often does this kind of information (feedback)get back to JohnS. or others that can "manage" a change, i.e. improvement? RSB? Is there an official channel or "improvement process" that we should take.

ChuckS

Actually both WCOs and the deputies spend a good bit of time training, every year, on verbal communications skills; a lot more time then other law enforcement agencies spend on their communications skills.

From my many years or experience and observation the problem comes from the attitude of some of the people that we have to deal with, and rarelythe officer's attitude.

I think anyone reading this very thread can easily see that some of the public we encounter resent even having an encounter with a Game Warden, no matterthe reason,so they start it right off with an attitude that they don’t have to comply with the Officers lawful requests and it goes down hill from there.

I personally treat everyone with as much courtesy and respect as they will allow, but unfortunately some people just refused to be treated with courtesy and respect when they are being checked by a Game Officer. It isn’t often that we encounter someone that pushes the limit to the point that we arrest them but it is pretty common for people to start right out with the comments that they don’t have to allow us to check their license.When we encounter that attitude they are not going to leave with happy thoughts about the Game Warden or the Game Commission no matter how polite and respectful we are. But, make no mistake about it, it was their attitude that brought on the unpleasant encounter with the Game Warden. Of course the officer’s behavior and attitude changes when they are dealing with someone that is in a rant and just plan refusing to comply with lawful requests or orders. The officer is either going to accomplish his job or there is a really good chance the subject is going to end up being charged with resisting inspection. Thatthen results in some of the very over zealous officer complaints that other people hear about, though they generally only hear a one side version.

I suppose that some Officers do get a bit burned out from the attitude the see in some hunters and that then affects the way they start seeing all hunters. We try to stay on top of and correct that attitude within our ranks and I think we do a darn good job of it.

But, make no mistakes about the fact that our officers are able to read the body language and understand the verbal cues that are clearly being sent by someone that is try to psychologically intimidate the officer into not dealing with them. That is also the behavior sent by a criminal that has violationsthey don’t want caught with. That then causes the officer to become more concerned with both maintaining a safe environment while they continue to check the person to determined what they are try to avoid having detected.

Nope, after over 29 years of law enforcement I know darn well that it is the person being checked that generally sets the tone of how the encounter is going to go, not the other way around of it being the officer.

As for the comments about the way other agency officers deal with the pubic compared to WCOs; well about all I can say is that those of us that have spent years interacting and doingjoint investigations with the local and State Police have often made the statement about how if we dealt with people the way they do we would be looking at and answering a lot of complaint letters. People just take on a completely different attitude with a police officer then they do with the Game Warden and we, the officers, can’t change that because that comes from someone else’s attitude, not ours.

I would bet that the vast majority of those people that are having problems with the attitudes of Game Wardens are the same ones that start the encounter out with their own attitude that the Game Warden shouldn’t be checking them or even talking to them in the first place. Maybe if they looked a little closer at themselves they would have a much better understanding of where the problem really starts.

And, incidentally the vast majority of the hunters and the non hunting public do want us checking hunters, to keep people within the limits of the laws and regulations that protect our wildlife sources. That is reflected by the laws established by the Legislature and the court opinions that allow for the enforcement actions being used to protect both our public and our resources.

Dick Bodenhorn
WCO, Elk County

Hunters hate the PGC because most of them treat us like we are criminals. Stopping you without cause, checking your license comparing it to your drivers license, Searching your cabin without cause or a warrant, setting up road blocks to inspect guns and deer. All of these things have happened to me and I a law abiding hunter. I hunted an fished in VA for 5 yrs and VT for 2yrs and was never stopped or questioned for anything. In those states you don't even have to display your license. In PA you have it on your back and they still harass you. I PA I seen guys get fined for driving an old man that just got over a heart attack up a power line to his stand. In VA we were packing our stands in on a logging trail, the Game Warden was driving up the trail stopped and drove us half way to our stands. I think most people in the PGC need a serious attitude adjustment. They need to realize that the hunters are the good guys not the criminals.

"RSB"anyone can attend a compulsary class. Absorbing and understanding what was presented and than acting accordingly is quite another matter.

Please address the comments below.

"It's my duty or, It's my job to check you."

NEVER has a Game Warden said "I'm investigating a game law violation and I need to check your license."

Because without stating the reason for the stop and check it would appear that the officer just might be out of line with the law.

It also seems unusual that you do not address the fact that not one officer checked Don Madl when he was abusing the game laws. Did Madl come under a different jurisdiction?

Again,I must be lucky to live whereI do but I've never been treated like a criminal by A wco in these parts.I've had them check my lisence and ID butI don't take thatas treating me like a criminal.I've had them check my shotgun to make sure it was plugged.Why are those acts a problem?Personally,I'm glad that they're out there making contact with people.You guys bitch that they check people and then bitch that they don't catch enough poachers.

As far as the guys getting fined for driving on a powerline,was it their property?If it was,they wouldn't have gotten fined.Otherwise,they must have been breaking the law.

Some of you guys are too much.We have conspiracy theories flying all over the place.Mountain lions being dragged of roads,cattle trucks full of coyotes and outdoor writers wanting a hearing because he claims we now have 80+lb wolf hybrids running around.If guys don't kill their deer from the same stump they've sat next to for the past 30 years,they cry to their legislature demanding easier hunting.If that doesn't work,the sue the PGC, because as their fearless leader would say,"we have nothing to lose."I'm actually emarrased to call myself a hunter.Some of you guys need to stay in Ohio.