For those who never read the 1st page of this topic - its NOT about deer density in 5c,2b,3b,4z or any other zone.

Can we keep it on topic - Thanks

I totally agree that deer bones don’t indicate a violation and I don’t completely expect there is a violation involved with this report.

But, what I do know is that this is also an area where I have had reports of shots being fired late at night by someone that doesn’t use the roads before or after the shots. In fact I just had reports of two shots in the area last Sunday night at about 10 minutes before midnight. There is an indication they use an ATV though and that indicates someone pretty local.

Right now what I have is a citizen complaint about alleged illegal deer killing and I do generally investigate those allegations, at least within the limits of a legal walk through the woods. If deer bones start showing up before the season then we certainly do have something that needs to be further explored.

Would you prefer that we not check out such reports?

Dick Bodenhorn
WCO, Elk County

"PA Trophy" in your long public land hunting career you've encountered ONE game warden. Hmmmmmmm. I'm impressed. I don't believe that you have to worry about any cavity searches. I doubt that your any Game Wardens type.

What I would like to see are some statistics showing the percentage of fines levied at hunters caught using someone elses license as opposed to their own, and what percentage that was when compared to the number of hunters there are in Pennsylvania.

As far as deer bones in someone's back yard, well, at one time there were several dozen snow geese burried in my vegatable patch. I suppose I should turn myself in to the authorities.
I can't imagine that RSB actually went to that place and wasted his time looking for "Dem Bones."
(Dem Bones, Dem Bones, Dem.. Dry Bones...)

We don’t do any kind of searches without probable cause. We will do license, bag checks or other legal “Terry Stops” or “mere encounters” without a warrant or probable cause though since the courts all across this nation have ruled those aren’t searches.

In over 29 years as a Game Warden I have never even heard of a Game Warden doing a strip search let along a body cavity search.

Dick Bodenhorn
WCO, Elk County

We will do license, bag checks or other legal “Terry Stops” or “mere encounters” without a warrant or probable cause

Why would you do this without probable cause???In the eyes of the anmal police everyone is guilty or a criminal then...Or do the animal police judge people for the way they look or what they drive?? What is the purpose of doing these things ifother than youdon't trust people??? Sounds more like a nazi organization the more you keep talking....You just do these things to show your power...Your an animal cop.....You all are starting to look like nazi cops to me...

Why can't you write without insulting people?

"Danial" may not be politically correct, but he does have a point. There's no need to stop a hunter simply to check his license. Unless the hunter isdoing something to cause suspicion I consider it interfering with my hunt, and I make that known to the Game Warden. As far as a mere encounter, I don't believe I have to submit to any search.

I was hunting in Maine 2 years ago and encountered a Maine Game Wardenand his deputy. The first thing he said to our party was that he recommended we try an area not far from where we were as they had seen a bunch of Woodcock and he proceded to give us directions. We asked if he was going to check our licenses and he said "if you want me to."
Big difference between Maine and Pennsylvania. I have NEVER had a Game Warden say to me and my sons "Go over here or there as there are more birds there" The first words out of their mouth is "Can I see your license?"

Checking my license or checking my tag on the deer doesn't bother me in the least. My camp gets checked every yr and we have never had a single problem. Granted no WCO's have tried to force there way into my camp to search or tried to search my car. They wouldn't find anything but the fact of privacy would come into play there. From my past experiance with game commissioners over the yrs in PA is the way they treat or speak down to you while doing so. Most I have ran into just know your guilty of something and are digging to find it nomatter how small it is. Only problem I have really had with a warden was in a freinds camp in Warren pa during doe season. We all shot our deer early and was back at camp with the deer hanging on the porch. when the warden came to "check tags" which was no big deal till he started asking where 1 person that had a tag on a deer but wasn't present at the cabin. We told him clearly that this person went to town to call home and would be back shortly. Well the warden made a very big deal out of it till about 5 mins later my buddy pulled in and show him is ID and his license and the warden said "If he didn't show up when he did I was going to write a ticket for the camp owner for having a deer hanging without a hunter present even though we showed him the persons name on the roster and explained he went to town.

As for the bones I will keep my eyes open when i go up to scout if i see anything else I will post it on here instead of calling anyone.

Trytan

R.S.B.,

I'll say it again, I commend you for coming on here and taking the heat you do.

Many of us are frustated and it is nice to be able to vent. I'm not sure if you see ourpoint though.

You went to great lengths to explain some scenerios of what may cause you to check licenses and such. I'll admit that I would agree with some of that.

But, do you see our point of hunters being talked down to and treated like criminals? You may have tips or leads, but you don't need to offend every hunter you encounter to follow up on those tips.

I just wonder what body language or what I did to be checked for having a camera. And WHY, WHY, WHY did they NEED to inspect my camera and take the tape out? Can you in all your experience as a WCO, give me a clue or a scenerio that would explain that?

Once they saw I had no firearm there was no need to even check a license. Like I said, I could have even been wearing your jacket and license and it shouldn't of mattered, because I was on private ground, taking video of deer.

Most of us here know the ATTITUDE we see when encountering a WCO in the field and I have to say, that I can see a little bit of that in your posts.
You automatically say that we make these stories up.

I'm not sure if you ever felt that your rights were violated. You've probably never had someone treat you like a criminal for doing nothing wrong.

I wonder if you would feel different if maybe your wife or daughter were stopped by the police for merely driving in a large town. Ordered out of their car as officers had their hand on their weapons. Your wife or daughter searched and interrogated for driving through town.Maybe if the officers accused them of maybe looking to buy drugs or something.Detaining them and asking them questions and insinuating they were up tono good. All this and the officers only excuse would be that they had a tip that drugs were being sold on the same street that they were driving down. You wife or daughters only offence would be, driving down a street.

Lets say this same scenerio happens again a few months later. Then maybe again next year. This same thing happens to your brother, aunt, cousin, son. Sooner or later you would feel that peoples rights are being violated.

If this happened, you would understand much better, where we are coming from. But since the State Police can't do this kind of thing to just anyone, you'll never understand.

The bad part is, we all know that drugs, drunk drivers, terrorists and thugs pose a bigger threat to society thanElmer,the deer poacher, yet the police can't just pull anyone over they feel like, unless they have a good reason. Yet the PGC does whatever the heck they want because they are the PGC. Doesn't make sense does it.

The excuse that hunting is a regulated sport isn't cutting it either. Driving is regulated, alcohol is regulated, drugs are regulated and so on and so on.

You obviously don’t have any idea about what is required for an investigative field check or a lawful vehicle stop for that matter.

You do not have to have probable case for a license check, bag check or for stopping and questioning a hunter or a person in a vehicle. All that is required, by the law and courts, for any officer, Game Commission or any other law enforcement officer, to stop and question a person, in our out of a vehicle, and conduct a brief investigative detention is reasonable suspicion. Reasonable suspicion is simply articuable facts that would lead a reasonably prudent person believe that criminal activity is a foot.

During the stop and investigative detention iswhenthe officer islooking for additional satisying facts that lead tosending the person on their way or for developing the probable cause for a search anddeveloping additional evidenceto make an arrest if the additional evidence is present.

I am so sorry that you are having such a hard time with legal and justified law enforcement. But, if you want to be a functional member of society you will just have to learn to live by the standards acceptedby society, the laws and the courts and I guess that includes Game Wardens checking hunters.

Dick Bodenhorn
WCO, Elk County