A question for R.S.B.
08-16-2006, 10:02 AM
#62
Giant Nontypical
Join Date: Jan 2005
Location: PA
Posts: 8,167
RE: A question for R.S.B.
Heres the Don Madl story for those of you that missed it.
With fine leadership like this what do you think the future will bring?
The Philadelphia Inquirer, December 16, 1999[/align][/align]By Glen Justice[/align]INQUIRER HARRISBURG BUREAU[/align]HARRISBURG - A state investigation has accused the former director of the Pennsylvania Game Commission of illegally taking commission property, using employees to perform personal services, and violating game laws that regulate deer hunting. [/align]Donald Madl spent more than 40 years working for the commission before retiring from his $89,891-a-year post in April after six years as executive director. [/align]Madl denied the accusations through his lawyer yesterday. Officials at the Game Commission, which regulates hunting, said the findings had been forwarded to the Attorney General's Office for possible criminal prosecution. [/align]"This is truly a sad day in the history of the Pennsylvania Game Commission," the agency's director, Vern Ross, said yesterday. He called on Madl to resign his volunteer post as a deputy wildlife conservation officer in Westmoreland County and repay the commission for the items he is accused of taking. [/align]Madl has refused to resign, and his attorney, Al Lindsay, said yesterday that "it is my position that they smeared a dedicated public servant. He is innocent of any charges. They don't even make sense." [/align]Neither the commission nor the state inspector general, who conducted the inquiry, would release the report. But Ross said in a statement that the report alleged that Madl had: [/align]Used commission employees and equipment to perform personal services during work hours between 1988 and 1998. Among them: skinning 123 deer apparently shot by Madl, skinning 52 more apparently shot by Madl's family and friends, plowing the driveway to Madl's house from 10 to 12 times, and repairing Madl's hunting trailer about half a dozen times. [/align]"Abused the commission's ordering system" since 1993 by ordering 67 pairs of black socks, 69 pairs of boot socks, four pairs of rubber boots, 14 pairs of "summer boots," eight pairs of "winter boots," seven pairs of dress shoes in various sizes, and six insulated vests. Though Madl was entitled to some uniform items, the report said the orders far exceeded those made by other employees. [/align]Failed to return several pieces of equipment when he retired, including: 12 tires, a Sharp Wizard digital organizer, a Pentax camera, a Motorola radio, a Sony tape recorder, two computerized Global Positioning System units, and 11 Game Commission badges. Some of the items were returned after the probe began, commission spokesman Jerry Feaser said yesterday, and the agency is tallying the cost of the other items and plans to bill Madl. [/align]Violated the Game and Wildlife Code, which regulates deer hunting. The report alleges that 50 to 60 of the deer Madl brought in for skinning were not properly accounted for with the required paperwork. It was not clear whether he shot them or acquired them in other ways. "There's no documentation to show either way," Feaser said. [/align]The examination of Madl's conduct began shortly after Ross took office May 12, when Ross said he received information and forwarded it to the inspector general. [/align]Though the two-year statute of limitations has run out on the alleged game law violations, the rest of the findings are being examined by Attorney General Mike Fisher's office. [/align]"We will review it and give it the appropriate response," said Sean Connolly, Fisher's spokesman. [/align]Lindsay would not comment specifically on the allegations. However, he said that investigators did not contact Madl and that he was not given a chance to respond. The commission's Feaser said Madl refused to cooperate. [/align]Lindsay said he and his client were made aware of the specific accusations only yesterday. He said that Madl would not resign his deputy's job, which pays a $50-a-day stipend, until he is given a chance to defend himself. [/align]"This is un-American," he said. "They make wild allegations, they don't tell the person they are doing it, and then they call a press conference." [/align]A letter sent by Ross to Madl on Friday warned him that if he did not resign, the commission would seek to recall his deputy's commission. [/align]"The conclusions of this investigation establish that you demonstrated little regard for the Game Commission, its employees or the sportsmen and sportswomen of Pennsylvania," Ross said in his letter. [/align]"If you have any interest in repairing the damage you've done to the Game Commission's reputation or the morale of its employees, I urge you to submit a letter resigning your commission immediately." [/align]Feaser said Madl was offered the chance to resign "to spare the commission any further embarrassment." He offered no timeline for the start of Madl's removal. [/align][/align]
With fine leadership like this what do you think the future will bring?
The Philadelphia Inquirer, December 16, 1999[/align][/align]By Glen Justice[/align]INQUIRER HARRISBURG BUREAU[/align]HARRISBURG - A state investigation has accused the former director of the Pennsylvania Game Commission of illegally taking commission property, using employees to perform personal services, and violating game laws that regulate deer hunting. [/align]Donald Madl spent more than 40 years working for the commission before retiring from his $89,891-a-year post in April after six years as executive director. [/align]Madl denied the accusations through his lawyer yesterday. Officials at the Game Commission, which regulates hunting, said the findings had been forwarded to the Attorney General's Office for possible criminal prosecution. [/align]"This is truly a sad day in the history of the Pennsylvania Game Commission," the agency's director, Vern Ross, said yesterday. He called on Madl to resign his volunteer post as a deputy wildlife conservation officer in Westmoreland County and repay the commission for the items he is accused of taking. [/align]Madl has refused to resign, and his attorney, Al Lindsay, said yesterday that "it is my position that they smeared a dedicated public servant. He is innocent of any charges. They don't even make sense." [/align]Neither the commission nor the state inspector general, who conducted the inquiry, would release the report. But Ross said in a statement that the report alleged that Madl had: [/align]Used commission employees and equipment to perform personal services during work hours between 1988 and 1998. Among them: skinning 123 deer apparently shot by Madl, skinning 52 more apparently shot by Madl's family and friends, plowing the driveway to Madl's house from 10 to 12 times, and repairing Madl's hunting trailer about half a dozen times. [/align]"Abused the commission's ordering system" since 1993 by ordering 67 pairs of black socks, 69 pairs of boot socks, four pairs of rubber boots, 14 pairs of "summer boots," eight pairs of "winter boots," seven pairs of dress shoes in various sizes, and six insulated vests. Though Madl was entitled to some uniform items, the report said the orders far exceeded those made by other employees. [/align]Failed to return several pieces of equipment when he retired, including: 12 tires, a Sharp Wizard digital organizer, a Pentax camera, a Motorola radio, a Sony tape recorder, two computerized Global Positioning System units, and 11 Game Commission badges. Some of the items were returned after the probe began, commission spokesman Jerry Feaser said yesterday, and the agency is tallying the cost of the other items and plans to bill Madl. [/align]Violated the Game and Wildlife Code, which regulates deer hunting. The report alleges that 50 to 60 of the deer Madl brought in for skinning were not properly accounted for with the required paperwork. It was not clear whether he shot them or acquired them in other ways. "There's no documentation to show either way," Feaser said. [/align]The examination of Madl's conduct began shortly after Ross took office May 12, when Ross said he received information and forwarded it to the inspector general. [/align]Though the two-year statute of limitations has run out on the alleged game law violations, the rest of the findings are being examined by Attorney General Mike Fisher's office. [/align]"We will review it and give it the appropriate response," said Sean Connolly, Fisher's spokesman. [/align]Lindsay would not comment specifically on the allegations. However, he said that investigators did not contact Madl and that he was not given a chance to respond. The commission's Feaser said Madl refused to cooperate. [/align]Lindsay said he and his client were made aware of the specific accusations only yesterday. He said that Madl would not resign his deputy's job, which pays a $50-a-day stipend, until he is given a chance to defend himself. [/align]"This is un-American," he said. "They make wild allegations, they don't tell the person they are doing it, and then they call a press conference." [/align]A letter sent by Ross to Madl on Friday warned him that if he did not resign, the commission would seek to recall his deputy's commission. [/align]"The conclusions of this investigation establish that you demonstrated little regard for the Game Commission, its employees or the sportsmen and sportswomen of Pennsylvania," Ross said in his letter. [/align]"If you have any interest in repairing the damage you've done to the Game Commission's reputation or the morale of its employees, I urge you to submit a letter resigning your commission immediately." [/align]Feaser said Madl was offered the chance to resign "to spare the commission any further embarrassment." He offered no timeline for the start of Madl's removal. [/align][/align]
08-16-2006, 10:39 AM
#63
Spike
Join Date: Dec 2005
Posts: 86
RE: A question for R.S.B.
ORIGINAL: DougE
My hat's off to you R.S.B.If thes are the typical attitudes you encounter on a daily basis,you either have a thick skin and good sense of human or a constant prescription of prozac.
My hat's off to you R.S.B.If thes are the typical attitudes you encounter on a daily basis,you either have a thick skin and good sense of human or a constant prescription of prozac.
Well, since you dragged him here, it's only fitting that you should be the one supplying his prozac !
By the way, I'm still (somewhat less) patiently awaiting my answer on the following, probably now from RSB, since you didn'tknow (again my area of interest is the 4B/4A WMU area).
ORIGINAL: yano
Actually I meant "active exclosures" in the above, but lets try this again; any comments DougE or RSB ?
ORIGINAL: yano
Does the PGC have these "hoedowns" in all of the otherWMU's ? 
Like myself, I'm guessing others would be far more interested in tours in their immediate area.A listing of tours by county or WMUwould be of interest to me; actually, a list of "active enclosures" by county or WMUthat I could visit on my own would be of more value to me personally due to potential scheduling conflicts and the like.
ORIGINAL: DougE
Smokeman,if you have the time,you would really enjoy one of R.S.B's habitat tours.It's a real eye opener and he'll even buy you lunch.
Smokeman,if you have the time,you would really enjoy one of R.S.B's habitat tours.It's a real eye opener and he'll even buy you lunch.
Like myself, I'm guessing others would be far more interested in tours in their immediate area.A listing of tours by county or WMUwould be of interest to me; actually, a list of "active enclosures" by county or WMUthat I could visit on my own would be of more value to me personally due to potential scheduling conflicts and the like.
08-16-2006, 11:15 AM
#64
Join Date: Aug 2005
Location:
Posts: 430
RE: A question for R.S.B.
"Bawanajim" you have to understand that no one within the agency, not one Game warden, Not one supervisor, not one manager, not one Executive PGC Officer ever knew anything about Madl's illegal activities.
Madl was a master of secrecy. It should also be noted that his photo hangsprouldy in the PGC auditorium. I'm sure that many people within the agency model themselves after Madl. It's only fitting.
Madl was a master of secrecy. It should also be noted that his photo hangsprouldy in the PGC auditorium. I'm sure that many people within the agency model themselves after Madl. It's only fitting.
08-16-2006, 11:34 AM
#65
Join Date: Jun 2006
Location:
Posts: 160
RE: A question for R.S.B.
ORIGINAL: R.S.B.
You obviously don’t have any idea about what is required for an investigative field check or a lawful vehicle stop for that matter.
You do not have to have probable case for a license check, bag check or for stopping and questioning a hunter or a person in a vehicle. All that is required, by the law and courts, for any officer, Game Commission or any other law enforcement officer, to stop and question a person, in our out of a vehicle, and conduct a brief investigative detention is reasonable suspicion. Reasonable suspicion is simply articuable facts that would lead a reasonably prudent person believe that criminal activity is a foot.
During the stop and investigative detention iswhenthe officer islooking for additional satisying facts that lead tosending the person on their way or for developing the probable cause for a search anddeveloping additional evidenceto make an arrest if the additional evidence is present.
I am so sorry that you are having such a hard time with legal and justified law enforcement. But, if you want to be a functional member of society you will just have to learn to live by the standards acceptedby society, the laws and the courts and I guess that includes Game Wardens checking hunters.
Dick Bodenhorn
WCO, Elk County
ORIGINAL: Daniel__
We will do license, bag checks or other legal “Terry Stops” or “mere encounters” without a warrant or probable cause
Why would you do this without probable cause???In the eyes of the anmal police everyone is guilty or a criminal then...Or do the animal police judge people for the way they look or what they drive?? What is the purpose of doing these things ifother than youdon't trust people??? Sounds more like a nazi organization the more you keep talking....You just do these things to show your power...Your an animal cop.....You all are starting to look like nazi cops to me...
We will do license, bag checks or other legal “Terry Stops” or “mere encounters” without a warrant or probable cause
Why would you do this without probable cause???In the eyes of the anmal police everyone is guilty or a criminal then...Or do the animal police judge people for the way they look or what they drive?? What is the purpose of doing these things ifother than youdon't trust people??? Sounds more like a nazi organization the more you keep talking....You just do these things to show your power...Your an animal cop.....You all are starting to look like nazi cops to me...
You do not have to have probable case for a license check, bag check or for stopping and questioning a hunter or a person in a vehicle. All that is required, by the law and courts, for any officer, Game Commission or any other law enforcement officer, to stop and question a person, in our out of a vehicle, and conduct a brief investigative detention is reasonable suspicion. Reasonable suspicion is simply articuable facts that would lead a reasonably prudent person believe that criminal activity is a foot.
During the stop and investigative detention iswhenthe officer islooking for additional satisying facts that lead tosending the person on their way or for developing the probable cause for a search anddeveloping additional evidenceto make an arrest if the additional evidence is present.
I am so sorry that you are having such a hard time with legal and justified law enforcement. But, if you want to be a functional member of society you will just have to learn to live by the standards acceptedby society, the laws and the courts and I guess that includes Game Wardens checking hunters.
Dick Bodenhorn
WCO, Elk County
The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
What part of the above gives you permission to do these things you speak of????
I am so sorry that you are having such a hard time with legal and justified law enforcement. But, if you want to be a functional member of society you will just have to learn to live by the standards acceptedby society, the laws and the courts and I guess that includes Game Wardens checking hunters.
No, it doesn't work this way... You become part of society and reconize our rights and laws.. We do not pay taxes to the PGC..You are not above any law agency, Your actually below them...
The american people don't pay taxes for you to work for us... Your paid to do work for the sporstman who purchase liscense who pays your salary... Learn to accept that concept and realize your nothing but animal cops....Ace...
I live by the laws of the constitution...And most of us do...I advise you to respect these rights and obey by these laws...Some of us do have lawyers and are not afraid to push these laws of yours thru the courts if ever brought down on us as individuals... I for one would not hesitate to do so.. Especially if I wasn't on SGL parcels..
08-16-2006, 11:56 AM
#66
Nontypical Buck
Join Date: Feb 2004
Posts: 2,262
RE: A question for R.S.B.
Yano,I didn't drag R.S.B. on here.Accusations were made about someone alledgedly dragging a mountain lion off the road in his district.The Allegation then went on to say it was a big PGC cover-up.Since he's the one that would have had to be covering anything up,I said that I'd try to bring him on here so he could answer to the allegations.I suppose you're right though.I probably should have just spared him the grief.
I know R.S.B and I evenrode along with him one day.During that day,we were looking at habitat issues but he did make contact with several people.I wouldn't be surprised if some of those people went down to the localbar and told there buddies how Bodenhorn harrassed them.I didn't see it that way.He talked to a few guysthat were riding mountain bikes in areas where they weren't supposed to be but never gave anyone a citation or even a written warning.He was polite,couteous and treated everyone with respect.At the end of the day some young guy approached us because he heard Dick was looking for him.Dick did a pretty good jobpressing theguy for details but did it with a smile on his face the entire time.It was funny to watch because the guy changed his story about a half a dozen times.I can tell you for a fact that Dick Bodenhorn ain't no sheriff Rosco P Coltraine.You guys can bad-mouth him all you want but you know nothing about him.He spends more time fighting to keep properties open to hunting and educating the public than anyone I know.The guy's dedication to the sport is second to no-one and you guys just keep trying to smear him.I've met alot of good peopleover the years that put all their energy in to fighting for our right to hunt and to make sure people understand how important of a role huntersplay.No one goes the extra mile like R.S.B.You guys should all be thanking him instead of blasting him.Like I said before,as time goes by,I'm actually starting to be embarrased to call myself a hunter.
I know R.S.B and I evenrode along with him one day.During that day,we were looking at habitat issues but he did make contact with several people.I wouldn't be surprised if some of those people went down to the localbar and told there buddies how Bodenhorn harrassed them.I didn't see it that way.He talked to a few guysthat were riding mountain bikes in areas where they weren't supposed to be but never gave anyone a citation or even a written warning.He was polite,couteous and treated everyone with respect.At the end of the day some young guy approached us because he heard Dick was looking for him.Dick did a pretty good jobpressing theguy for details but did it with a smile on his face the entire time.It was funny to watch because the guy changed his story about a half a dozen times.I can tell you for a fact that Dick Bodenhorn ain't no sheriff Rosco P Coltraine.You guys can bad-mouth him all you want but you know nothing about him.He spends more time fighting to keep properties open to hunting and educating the public than anyone I know.The guy's dedication to the sport is second to no-one and you guys just keep trying to smear him.I've met alot of good peopleover the years that put all their energy in to fighting for our right to hunt and to make sure people understand how important of a role huntersplay.No one goes the extra mile like R.S.B.You guys should all be thanking him instead of blasting him.Like I said before,as time goes by,I'm actually starting to be embarrased to call myself a hunter.
08-16-2006, 12:31 PM
#67
Join Date: May 2006
Location:
Posts: 317
RE: A question for R.S.B.
The original question starting this thread was why do so many hunters hate the P.G.C.. They may have the right to search us, our vehicles, our cabins, check our licenses and firearms without any cause whatsoever. But it is not their obligation to do so. There is no reason anyone should come up to me while I'm sitting in the woods hunting and check my license. What was I doing that involved "suspicious behavior". Last time I checked most poachers shoot deer from trucks or at night. Stop harassing people for no reason. You get attitude right away because most guys are law abiding sportsman and you are harassing them. When was the last time aREAL POLICE OFFICERpulled you over when you were doing the speed limit and obeying the law. I have never had this happen in my entire life. Have you ever had a REAL POLICE OFFICER come in your house and demand to see all your guns without a warrant or reason? No Chance In Hell! But Game Wardens harass me all the time, can I see your license?, how many fish do you have?, what kind of bait are you using?, deer and gun check road blocks. Why not assume I'm innocent until you see me do something wrong. I have never been in another state that hates it's Game Wardens like PA residents do and there is a good reason for it. It's amazing to me that the animals and fish in the state of PA have more rights than it's hunters.How can the voters of PA allow our Constitutional rights to be taken away to protect animals? Ultimately it's not the fault of the Wardens, it's the laws that give themthe power to stripus ofour Constitutional rights that's the real problem. I also want to say that no matter how much of an ass any Warden is to me I ALWAYS treat them with the utmost respect.
08-16-2006, 01:00 PM
#68
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Erie Co. PA
Posts: 56
RE: A question for R.S.B.
ORIGINAL: yano
...By the way, I'm still (somewhat less) patiently awaiting my answer on the following, probably now from RSB, since you didn'tknow (again my area of interest is the 4B/4A WMU area).
...Does the PGC have these "hoedowns" in all of the otherWMU's ?
Like myself, I'm guessing others would be far more interested in tours in their immediate area.A listing of tours by county or WMUwould be of interest to me; actually, a list of "active enclosures" by county or WMUthat I could visit on my own would be of more value to me personally due to potential scheduling conflicts and the like.
...By the way, I'm still (somewhat less) patiently awaiting my answer on the following, probably now from RSB, since you didn'tknow (again my area of interest is the 4B/4A WMU area).
...Does the PGC have these "hoedowns" in all of the otherWMU's ?
Like myself, I'm guessing others would be far more interested in tours in their immediate area.A listing of tours by county or WMUwould be of interest to me; actually, a list of "active enclosures" by county or WMUthat I could visit on my own would be of more value to me personally due to potential scheduling conflicts and the like.
Because the exclosures are located on SGL, state forest land and federal land, I doubt if there is a list of them anywhere. I don’t think that a visit would reveal much insight to you with out info on the “background” of the plot anyway. Without knowing the before and after condition of the forest, how it was cut, when, when the fence was put up, any treatments before and after cutting, I don’t believe you would glean much from just a look at them. That’s where the tours come in…
The UBP has organized tours for several years now. This year they had one June 10th in Monroeville (2B) that focused on urban deer management. Last year they had one in Warren / Hearts Content and discussed (among other things) the Tilghman ENclosures. RSB had one in late June and I believe may do another this year if there is enough interest. Of course that is in Elk county (SGL44). I would recommend that all hunters, interested in learning more about the relationship of deer to the habitat, make an effort to attend one of these tours. BTW, I understand that the tour RSB puts on is held by his own volition. After going on a few of these tours, I am amazed at how much extra the WCO’s put into educating the public; not just these tours but into local schools and state park programs.
If I hear of any tours coming up, I’ll make a post.
ChuckS
08-16-2006, 01:24 PM
#69
Join Date: Jul 2004
Location: Enola, PA
Posts: 168
RE: A question for R.S.B.
I have hunted 20+ years in PA and I have been checked several times. I have never had a problem or been treated poorly.
I don't have a real problem having my license checked, it is a small inconvenience. I have always treated the WCOs with respect and have been treated likewise.
I don't have a real problem having my license checked, it is a small inconvenience. I have always treated the WCOs with respect and have been treated likewise.
08-16-2006, 02:52 PM
#70
Typical Buck
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: PA
Posts: 522
RE: A question for R.S.B.
"Some of you guys are too much..."
Just nowfigured that out, didja? [8D]
Don't think I've ever seen a place that features as much misinformation and hogwash, or exposes so many that arefull of sour grapes and bad manners, as this site.
There was a behaviorwarning posted above all forums here a few months ago, but apparently it was only afutile gesture and wasn't meant to be enforced.
Just nowfigured that out, didja? [8D]
Don't think I've ever seen a place that features as much misinformation and hogwash, or exposes so many that arefull of sour grapes and bad manners, as this site.
There was a behaviorwarning posted above all forums here a few months ago, but apparently it was only afutile gesture and wasn't meant to be enforced.