A question for R.S.B.
 

First off, I have to say, that I do respect you for coming on here and taking all the heat that you do. It has to be tuff. You do keep your cool when the heat is on and that takes a big man.

But I have to ask. What do you think the reasoning is, that so many PA hunters hate the PGC?

You don't hear about this in other states like you do about PA.

This started way back even before antler restrictions. I remember it being on the news about the PGC and the trouble with their public relations and abuse of power.

I was just curious as to your comment on this.

RE: A question for R.S.B.
 

I remember when I was young and we would go deer hunting in the ANF. This was back when we got tons of snow and freezing temps. One time, a GC jeep had slid off the road and was stuck in the ditch. Truck after truck went by them and nobody stopped to pull them out. As a young hunter, it puzzled me why nobody would help them. I now realize that maybe the hunters had bad experiences with the WCO's and figured "screw them, let them be stuck". Of course, the WCO's must have thought that every truck that went by was full of poachers riding around with untagged deer and loaded rifles in their trucks.
I personnally have not had any such experiences with WCO's and as a matter of fact have found them to be very professional. I had close dealings with Beth Fife, a woman WCO. Sheis exceptional in her approach to her job. Although she refused to dart a buck that I found in a fence during archery season and instead, insisted on putting it down, I accepted her assessment of the situation. She was quite surprised that I didn't just shoot it and put my tag on it. She commended me on my ethics and said that if any other hunter would have found it, the GC would not have even been called. I would have liked to have been able to continue to hunt it fair chase. I relied on her experience and respected her decision. We shouldn't paint them all with such a broad brush. There are always good and bad. Some may be overzealous at times, yes, but that is not the norm in my experience.

RE: A question for R.S.B.
 

I really wish I knew the answer to that question. I suspect it has to do with a lot of different factors and one of them is just what you have been reading in the other thread.

Most of them are either flat out lies or embellished stories though I suppose some of the stores do have some truth in them as far as hunters feeling they were harassed.

I have hunters that feel they were harassed simply because we checked their hunting license and asked them for identification. What they see as harassment to use is really nothing more then a field check to make sure the person is properly licensed and has the required tags and that they are who the license was issued to.

Another big problem is that people, including our State Legislature, don’t think of wildlife crime as a real crime. Since people don’t think of game law violations as crime they don’t view the enforcement of those laws as anything more then an infringement of their rights and their fun. That is where WCOs view it differently; we do view it as crime. I view the killing of wildlife illegally the same as stealing. I see it about the same as I would a criminal that would break in your home and steal your property. The reason I see it that way is because they are stealing from the honest hunters and all of society. The guy that kills more then his share or through illegal methods isn’t hurting me or even the resource in most cases but they are stealing some kid’s opportunity for a successful hunt, and that is a thief no matter what else a person might call it.

A large part of the problem has to focus on the way people look on laws they don’t like or support. People just don’t understand or like laws that interfere with their recreation and that is what they view game laws as doing.

I am sure part of it has to do with the fact that at one time the courts did give the game law enforcement a bit more leeway on searches due to the nature of the job and the officers took advantage of that leeway. Those are the days of old though and it just isn’t that way any more even though some of those old stories still get told. That is also part of what I am trying to set the record straight on.

The State Legislature could do a lot more to help people understand the importance of the wildlife laws by making the more serious offense more then a summary offense. A good example is in the fact that it is a more serious crime to kick a police dog them it is to assault a Game Warden.

I am sure that a part of it is in the fact that we are often alone in, the middle of no where, with no back up while we are dealing with two, three or even more people that are in violation and possibility even drunk. So, we have to be rather forceful and on top of things just to maintain a reasonably safe scene where we have control of the scene. That requires that we give people orders and enforce those orders for our own safety and possibly even the safety of those we are dealing with.

That last problem only gets compounded when you add the fact that pretty much everyone we deal with has also heard the misinformation that we can’t arrest them or that we can’t search their vehicle and that we can’t do this or that. When they decide they want to be in charge of the scene and start telling the officer what the office can and can’t do., even though the Officer is within their legal authority, it can get to the point real quick where the Officer is being forceful; not because we want it to be that way but because we have to deal with the situation as someone promoted it.

I would like to hear your thought on why people don’t take game laws and their enforcement seriously.

Dick Bodenhorn
WCO, Elk County

RE: A question for R.S.B.
 

Most people don't realize that ANY law enforcement official has the right to establish the identity of ANY person at ANY time, the only requirement is REASONABLE SUSPICION. While I have not been stopped during the deer seasons, I have had WCO's stop and do a license check while fishing on several occasions, even while wearing my sidearm. The officers' went about his business in a professional manner, as soon as he saw my licenses were in order proceded with some small talk and even offered advice on some other spots to check out.

RE: A question for R.S.B.
 

i hate what they did to our hunting.no more ringnecks in the gratz area.they left the hunter kill off the deer in dauphin county.and when you call them about a poacher they just forget about it.i fell sry for my grandson till he gets to 12 we will have no deer

RE: A question for R.S.B.
 

I just know that my incident with the camera really turned me against the PGC." First impressions"

TheWCO that harrassed the hunters also. At the time I knew it wasn't right what he did to those guys. He was the only WCO that I personally knew. He was a nice guy towards me and dad but I did think he through his weight around a bit too much.

I think that some stories may be exagerated a little but for the most part I believe what I do, from first hand experience.

I'm sure that WCO's are trained to take a dominant approach when dealing with hunters but why do they do that to young hunters, like I was, armed only with a camera.

What ever you say R.S.B., there was no reason to check my ID and the license on my back, if I was only armed with a camera. They did not need to demand to look at the camera and start pushing buttons and eject the tape. There is no good reason to do that.

RE: A question for R.S.B.
 

Why is it that only PA hunters spread "lies" about their Game Commission?

I remember it being on the news about the PGC and their bad public relations many years ago. I believe that there was alot of hoopla over it because the PGC wanted a license increase at the time. They had public meetings everywhere and people were lining up at microphones all over the state to complain about the PGC.

I think its is funny how you just blame lying, misinformed, noncaring hunters for this public relation problem yet don't accept any blame for the actions of some WCO's. You know what they say about a few bad apples?

RE: A question for R.S.B.
 

You are really out of touch with the way many citizens think about their constitutional rights. The mere act of hunting is not probable cause to stop and demand (you are not "asking") the production of identification and a search of one's gun.Normal hunting is not a criminal activity and people resent being treated like criminals!
I know that Penna. law permits this, but that's because no one with money has challenged it. If a policeman can't stop me and demand I.D. without being able to articulate a reasonable suspicion that I have committed a crime, why should WCO's?
I'm not really trying to argue this law, I'm just responding to Windwalker asking why so many people hate the PGC and I take it to mean that he is talking about WCO's, notdeer management(which is a whole 'nother ball of wax).

I would ask you (RSB), what percent of the people that you stop and check turn out to be violating something?

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I would like to hear your thought on why people don’t take game laws and their enforcement seriously.

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RE: A question for R.S.B.
 

What right does the police have to set up a check point and check for dui's,insurance cards and registation?They don't have probable cause to pull over most of the drivers.

I have no issue with a WCOchecking my lisence and ID if i'm entering or leaving the woods,which has happened a few times.I would have a problem if they came in and contaminated my hunting area by demanding I come down from my stand just to check my lisence but that's never happened.

I don't feel that the majority of people hate the PGC.Most have no clue what the guys out in the field really do on a daily basis.It's like anything else,there's a small vocal minority that screams the loudest.

I have no doubt that there's plenty of deputies and maybe some WCO's that could use a lesson on public relations.Maybe I'm just lucky to live and hunt where I do.I feel that the WCO's are great guys and they do more to promote hunting and educate the public on the resource than I could have ever imagined.We also have some excellent land managersand excellent food and cover crews that do a phenominal job with the habitat.This is especially true consideringthe limited resourcesthey have to work with.Contrary to public opinion,DCNR is very much pro hunting around here and they also do a fantastic job and they care about the deer and the other resources.

You guys need to do yourselves a favor and get involved with some of the wildlife and habitat projects.Once you do,you'll realize how committed the PGC isto our cause.No organization is perfect but anyone that insinuates that the PGC wants to ruin hunting is totally clueless.

Smokeman,if you have the time,you would really enjoy one of R.S.B's habitat tours.It's a real eye opener and he'll even buy you lunch.

RE: A question for R.S.B.
 

Windwalker7 said:
“Why is it that only PA hunters spread "lies" about their Game Commission?”
I don’t think it is only PA…if my experiences are true the [fish&] game officers from Idaho, Georgia, and South Carolina are not thought highly of either.

“You know what they say about a few bad apples.”
I know what you mean and I often wonder if some of the “deputies” don’t give their supervising WCO’s more headaches then what they’re worth.

“I just know that my incident with the camera really turned me against the PGC." First impressions"
Let go of the hate, you’ll feel much better once you do. Do what I do, treat the WCO’s as individuals. If they’re an A—hole you’ll recognize it soon enough. Just don’t treat them like they are as soon as you meet them or the good WCO may just rise to the occasion.



Mocha Java said:
“You are really out of touch with the way many citizens think about their constitutional rights.”
I think you’re hitting close there. I know I despise the PSP DUI stops. I don’t understand how it can withstand constitutional muster. I think the courts are getting weak, IMHO. But from the point of view of the WCO…proper licensing is a critical element in determining if you’re hunting illegally. I think that is why the law allows it. A PSP trooper can check your speed even “run” your plate number. I can understand the need for “field checks” even checking your weapon. On the other hand I don’t think they should have the power for unwarranted searches that they are rumored to have. Again that’s a constitutional issue, with me. On the other hand I think a lot of the “unwarranted” searches did have justification…again a case where the actor just didn’t like getting caught.

It’s a tough nut to crack. I think it often comes down to an “authority” issue. RSB alluded to it when he mentioned how wildlife violations aren’t view as severely as other violation. In western NY a criminal escaped from prison, shot a policeman, and is still on the lam, yet people are rooting for this [felon] underdog. How crazy is that?

R.S.B said:
“Most of them are either flat out lies or embellished stories though I suppose some of the stores do have some truth in them as far as hunters feeling they were harassed.”
I think that is as close to the picture as you’ll find. Harassment being defined by. the individual being checked [or cited]. RSB, are you saying that the leeway with these warrant less searches are gone? These urban [rural?] myths die hard.

ChuckS