germain

Here's my problem with this whole deer reduction fiasco.They have been telling us places like southern potter in 2G have a depleted habitat and the deer need to be as low as possibly 5-6 dpsm.Yet they are now starting a massive elk expansion program.Not only is this hypicrital but it blows their save the habitat theory right out the window.
It's all about money {tourist dollars}and another ploy against hunting through the back door compliments of rendell and bebernliberal.

sproulman

germain, there are many reasons for this.first, the dcnr if they had their way would limit us to just elk viewing and hiking trails and designated areas.i really believe they dont want us out in woods WALKINGand SHOOTING GUNSwherever we want to.its all about control and right now if deer are done away with, no reason for us to be out walking around in THEIR woods.dont anyone laugh,its not funny!NO DOUBT THAT GOV.RENDELL AND DEBERNADIUS GANG ARE BUNCH OF ECO-WEENIE LIBERALS.solution.VOTE THEM OUT!!

germain

I'll say this,hunters/gun owners can not fall asleep.The anti hunting anti gun groups tried hitting us head on and it didn't work.They know going underground as a wolf in sheep's clothing is the way to go.
Reducing deer and replacing them with elk in a depleted habitat doesn't make sense.It's a switch from hunting to tourism.We lost a bigger percentage of hunters last year and we might lose alot more this year.The antis are sitting back and loving it.A few at work have been following this PA fiasco and they'll gladly reduce the deer now if it takes down the number of hunters in the future.They know strength is in numbers and they're banking on that.

sproulman

if hunters cant see what is happening,they are blind or believe crap they hear from rendell group.when dcnr debirandius guy comes around, does he go out and see hunters and show how he is going to grow deer feed and improve woods for DEER. nooooooooooo,he brings his canoe and goes canoeing. i heard he was real excited over yellow belly sap sucker he saw, ha.concern for deer here in 2g is at bottom of their list .

DougE

Oh my Sproulman.The PGC does not want all the deer dead.Without the deer,the PGC would be in trouble.The insurance industry has nothing to do with herd reductions.If you want to debate that one,have at it.Where does DCNR and the timber companies stand?Well,out of anyone,they definately want less deer.I really don't like their stance on everything and I certainly don't like the Rendell yes men that are running the show.So do they want all the deer deadso they they can ban hunting and take our guns?That's ludicrous.There will always bedeer and hunters will always be needed.DCNR only has say on what happens on state forest land.They don't control the forests or game on the remaining areas of the state,which is the majority of land.The state forests are managed for timber and that's not going to change.Deer are a part of the state forests but deer hunting is not the primary function of that property.I don't understand why most people fail to realize this.

I do agree with you guys about the expansion of the elk herd into the habitat depleted areas of 2G.Simply insane.

If the PGC wants all the deer dead and they want our guns,why did they drastically reduce the antlerless alloction in 2G over the past two years?

I can see wanting to keep a close eye on anything Rendell is overseeing.I can also see questioning the motives of DCNR to a certain degree.I just can't belive so many people buy into they crazy conspiracy theories about stocking predators and taking away our guns.

DougE

Phil,creating big clear-cuts will drastically increase the carrying capacity of an area.The biologists were right and in most cases the herd will grow quickly.The problem is,after about ten years or so,that habitat will turn into pole timber and the carrying capacity will go from around 60 dpsm down to about 5 dpsm.Those boom and bust cycles are precisely why Pa's timber is on a 100 year rotatotion schedule.

Four Sox

Nice to hear from you Phil with observations from Maine!!!


I'm anxious to hear all the nonsense that comes up at this Deer conference at valley forge this month, it'll be Alt and a bunch of Soccor moms, All they'll do is bash hunters for 3 days!!


Doug, I respect the fact that you trully believe in what your saying, I'm not 100% doubting you but things that Sproul is talking about is far from laughable anymore, the dots are getting easier to connect. To be honest, the Elk one really rattled me. I don't believe the old Predators out there with tags on, but man it is odd how they really exploded in a short time even though there would be 1 here and there in the 40's and 60's.

DougE

Four sox,Alt is out blaming the PGC and the hunters for the situation in urban areas.He's probably the biggest enemy to the hunters of this state.The guy has no credibility in my book.From what I've read,he isn't getting much of a crowd at his little conferances.I think most have learned to simply ignore the man.

We haven't had any more of a predator explosion is Pa than any other state has had.That would mean every game agency in the country is out stocking them which is highly unlikely.I wouldn't call it an explosion either.Back in 1980,my nieighbor killed two coyotes on the first drive of doe season that year.We saw a few here and thereafter that but the sign and sightings hasn't increased that much.They're out there but we still only kill one or two a year at most during deer and bear season.This year we killed one in bear season and the last two years we didn't kill any.I think they've been steadily increasing over the past 30 years or so but I don't see anything close to an explosion.How did they get in every other state?

The elk situation still baffles me as well.There's no doubt that Rendell and DCNR have put alot of loitical pressure on the PGC.It's even on their website under deer managemnt.In order to get the state forests recertified,they were told to do whatever was politically necessary to reduce the deer herd.That's a cold hard fact that can't be denied but no-one is trying to deny it.There's no question in my mind that DCNR has played a huge rolein this whole fiasco.Thisforest certification is worth alot of money to the state and the deer were the biggest obsticle in getting recertified.Where politics involved?Absolutely,but people need to get their facts strait.This has nothing to do with the insurance industry or people wanting to take our guns.From DCNR's standpoint,it's about timber revenue and tourism.They aren't my priorities as a hunter but they are the priorities of our state forests.There's nothing we can do about that and there's nothing the PGC can do.That's whyI get so sick and tired of people blaming the PGC for everything.They have very limited control over the habitat accross this state.

I like to base my opinions on facts,not crazy theories.Show me one piece of hard evidence that the PGC wants all the deer gone.Show me how the insurance industry has influenced the PGC.I want names of people from the insurance industry and specific people they paid off.Give me hard evidence that the PGC or any other agency has stocked any predators without telling the public.No one has any evidence about any of that so it's nothing more than ridiculous rumors being started by disgruntled hunters who didn't get their deer.If people would actually stick to the facts,more would get accomplished.

On the other hand,the PGC has reams of studies and evidence that prove how much damage the deer have done over the years because the herd was allowed to grow to the extentit did.Disprove that deer aren't causing regeneration problems.Explain why when they cut and area and fence it,there's regneration.I've asked this dozens of times and no one wants to anwser it.

The truth is,we had way too many deer for too long.We needed less deer and we need less for many more years until the habitat can recover.They're the facts and it has nothing to with taking our guns.

T_in_PA3

Gee, I don't see where I stated any numbers.

That day I only came across 1 mexican gentleman but I do know that migrant workers are used for performing manual thinning work in the NMW and that cannot be denied. If they are not there then maybe those 15 workers killed in the van roll over years ago never happened. Oh, 15, small group. Sorry. There are more. Definatly more.

Heavily employed.... let's see, according to some recent searches on the Internet it has turned up that 60% of Maine's 10,000 blueberry farm workers are migrant workers. That alone is pretty significant in some parts of Maine. 1/2 the employees at an egg processing plant in Turner Maine are migrant workers.

I could keep going but you get the point.

Like I said... they do the work the rest of us won't do.

Four Sox

T, they do the work the rest of use can't live off of. Now what they get paid, every else is starting to get paid, this economy will colapsebig time some day, enough of that now!!!




Ok Doug, I'm not a GC basher but I wish we, they could stand their ground a little bit with the DCNR, If Alt is such a loser which he is, why are we still following most of his guidlines?



Don't use the slashed doe liscenses, with Dmaps and everything its like pis*ing in the ocean and trying to flood New York.