Doug, your last statement yourrefering to Southern PA people who don't have the time and money to run around the central and northern part of the state. These people had cabins and a general radius to hunt, now you might have to drive 4 hours to camp, then another hour to hunt.

I'm not speaking about me or anything, but I'm sure thats why some are reluctant to return to camp, or find new areas.

That's not I'm referring to at all.I constantly hear people compaining about not seeing and deer and no sign.Well,if I wasn't seeing any deer or sign in an area,I certainly wouldn't hunt there.I live where there's 100's of thousands of acres of public land.There are areas with very few deer but the habitat is terrible.There are also plenty of areas within a 5 to 10 minute drive that still has decent hunting on public land.I hunt from the southern portion of 2G all the way north to Sinnemahoning and I found deer in every area where I hunted.Alot of these areas are very remote and steep.There's no way enough hunters are getting that far back in to reduce the herd as much as people say.There's no way.DCNRjust got done doing pellet counts in areas of The Quehanna wild area.Some of the wildest remote areas in that district had counts as low as 2 dpsm.I know some of these areas and you're lucky if you ever see another hunter that far back in.So who shot all the deer then?The answer is,the poor habitat and brutal winters of 2003 and 2004 is controlling the herd under those conditions.Alot of deer died during those winters,especially in2004 and fawn recruitment suffered greatly.

I understand that they take all those counted pellets back to Elmerton Ave and grind them upto bemixed them with the coffee grounds. That insures that they're in the proper state of mind when formulating the deer kill count. I think they refer to it as the "Garry Alt blend."

I'm not and never was a fan of Gary Alt's spin so I guess we agree on something.I do know there's not many deer left in that area and I also know the hunters didn't kill them all.

Howdy Doug,I'm responding to your last three posts so bear with me.
I just think it's too ironic that the herd crashed after massive amounts of anterless tags,new ML seasons,and the biggest factor a two week doe season.We had bad winters before with heavy ice storms on top.I'm going back to the 70's and 80's.But I have never even come close to seeing the herd crash like this.Sure there were fluctuations but the herd always rebounded.Quehanna used to be loaded with deer even after the winters of 93 and 94.No doubt a severe winter will take deer compounded with increased coyotes and bear numbers.But I'll always believe massive herd reduction did the most damage.Now with deer numbers alot lower when a few doe are taken out it affects the numbers even more.I don't doubt you find pockets of deer in mosh st forest.But I hunted bear and turkey in the previous washed out bridge area and man there is very very little deer sign within that big area.Getting back to your statement about people hunting where there's no deer.Well that would be an area where I sure wouldn't waste my time.
By the way I can never remember that dang road name that runs from parker dam to the washed out bridge.
In the beginning of herd reduction we were seeing in the 20-30 deer a day range on that same road up on the mountain to your left.Now of coarse that changed but I'm not seeing a difference in the habitat either.Beech seems to be doing OK.
One thing I really wonder about the future.I'm seeing more and more empty camps and talking to quite a few that are giving it up.With the DCNR still hell bent on farther reducing the herd I'm wondering who is gonna do that?Alot more tags for the few hunters left in those areas and are they willing to do that and can they kill enough deer?Or birth control?I think the answer will be birth control.Starting with the state forest land and then moving to the private land where land owners want it.That's my crystal ball.

Forgot something doug.If areas like quehanna were in fact affected by the winters of 2004/2005 then after this past year the herd should start to rebound like it always has.Good mast with our mild winter should start to see a rebound.But if too many demaps are handed out don't hold your breathe.

I also wanted to comment on your post on the previous page.As you said the forests are managed for timber.But it sure seems the birders are having their way with the meetings and involvement they have.So I think wildlife management does come into play and it should.After all the state forests were also set aside for open space and recreation as well as timber.

Thats one of many things I don't get Doug, if your calculating roughly 2 DPSM back in Queanna, why then does DCNR still have a quest for more oppurtunity to get those 2 Dpsm that are there??? Then GC, DCNR, or whoever turn around and wanna bring elk to other Parts of 2g???

I can answer your question about the elk.It's in the name of tourism and the PA wilds program brought do you by rendell and deberndardis or however you spell the anti gun anti hunter's name.How bout what's his face?
So they say elk are grazers and deer are browsers.So they cut a huge tract of forest out like on rte 144 for the elk and put tourist signs up to watch elk with collors on their necks.It's a darn shame.They open the forest up and the new oaks sprouting get grazed by the elk.That's OK though as long as it's not the deer eating the oaks.City folk rather see elk.

Maybe you'll like my Sig too!!!


Elk are just grazers is got to be a bunch of crap!!!

Funny stuff.

btw... 3 deer in the freezer again this year.

Turkey hunted a few days in Clinton County. I saw more deer in those couple days than I have 2 weeks turkey hunting down south here.

They are probably all browsers in PA then since food is scarce.
http://www.jacksonholenet.com/attractions/elk_refuge.php

The elk at Mammouth Hot Springs aren't eating browse.